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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans friendly thread!

999 replies

100lbtolose · 23/01/2018 14:43

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me Grin this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

OP posts:
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19
Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 19:56

What about people who are mentally ill?

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/01/2018 19:57

But @Glitched you must surely appreciate that what you've stated is a belief, not a fact that can be independent verified. By your definition, I'm not a woman. Is that something I need to learn to accept?

FissionChips · 23/01/2018 19:57

Easy to know if you’re gay or bi, younget turned on by the same sex. Explain how you know you’re a woman?

stitchglitched · 23/01/2018 19:57

Glitched what is a transwoman's biological sex please?

Glitterypinksoap · 23/01/2018 19:58

A whole group of women are being tossed aside because of your prejudice.

I believe that you believe that. I believe in reality, biology and science, and that those people are physically male, however they dress or cosmetically alter themselves or choose to define themselves.

This is no different to transtubstantiation. Do you believe that in the moment of a Catholic mass the priest turns the bread and wine into actual body and blood of Christ (despite having no visible change of form) or do you believe that that's just a belief some people hold? And that many Catholics, for centuries, have gone along with saying it because it's the politic thing to do while internally knowing it's impossible, it's not real, it's just a belief?

You can ask people to respect your personal beliefs. You cannot demand that they share them or be punished for failing to hold them. That's incredibly Henry The Eighth.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 19:59

Should it ever be acknowledged that trans identified males aren't actually women as most people in the world understand the word, in any circumstances? For instance if a female patient requests a female nurse to do her smear?

ArbitraryName · 23/01/2018 20:00

Oh I get it. Anti-trans doesn’t mean actually against transpeople. It means exhibiting any capacity to think about an issue at all. So if you haven’t drink the transgender ideology kool-aid then you’re anti-trans ideology.

I think that most of us can agree that we are anti-transgender dogma. The mistake the OP and the tiny number of supporters she’s applauded are making is confusing that with somehow being against people who believe themselves to be transgender. But it’s not the same.

For clarity the OP should maybe get the thread title changed to: Repetitions of transgender mantas #nodebate

Battleax · 23/01/2018 20:00

I know I'm a woman because that's my internal perspective.

What does that feel like, to you?

PidgeonPodge · 23/01/2018 20:00

Hi op, I am a transwoman and fully support trans rights.

I'm also a feminist, so I was wondering, why have you started this thread? To make us all look like idiots?

If you truly believe in and stand up for trans rights why are you ignoring the discussion on your own thread? Can you not think of one single sensible thing to say in reply to the many pertinent discussions raised on this thread.

It's idiots that blindly follow and shout about stuff they don't know about that is making life much harder for people like me. Or 'truscum' as I believe I'm affectionately known by your friends.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:01

🙌

OrderMeACurry · 23/01/2018 20:02

Trans woman are actually women and you're all casually dismissing them and throwing them under a bus.

Acknowledging biology can hardly be called dismissing and throwing people under a bus.

Transwomen are male. That is not a judgement, bigotry or transphobia. It is simply a statement of fact.

I was born male, have always been a male and always will be male. I can take as many hormones as I want to and have all the surgery I want to in order to make my body resemble a woman but I will never actually be a woman. I am a transwoman and you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. I am okay with that and I wish more people could be okay with that too.

NotAgainYoda · 23/01/2018 20:02

Rufus

I see you. I agree. But I think calling her posts 'narrative' is imbuing them with some level of thought-out-edness they don't have

NotAgainYoda · 23/01/2018 20:02

or his

AdalindSchade · 23/01/2018 20:02

Glitched
Humans have a consciousness that is more sophisticated than animals. We are aware of our selves. There is a tradition of humans processing this self awareness as a spiritual entity that exists distinct from the body, especially in cultures where religious beliefs are prevalent.
Believing in an essence, soul, spirit etc that is separate from the physical body is entirely a faith based position. There is no evidence for it. You have the right to believe it but you don't have the right to force me to believe it.
Believing in feminine and masculine souls or spirits that can exist in bodies of the opposite sex is a faith based position. You are free to believe it but as it has no evidence base or factual context you are not free to force me to believe it or to legislate that society has to act as if it is true.

I am a woman because I'm female and have been treated as females are treated since birth. The only way to be a woman is to be female and perceived as female.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 23/01/2018 20:03

*The feminists here say that saying 'Transwomen are women' shut down debate but to those of us that accept it it is the key starting point.

Transpeople are the gender they say they are, man or woman. It's what's inside that counts.*

I can see the appeal of that tbh. Live and let live. Be who you want to be as long as you aren't hurting anyone else.

But we do live in a world where people are trying to do harm. There are an awful lot of nasty men out there. Namalt, obviously but many are. I was watching this amazing programme last night. It's a BBC documemtary about indigenous Canadian women who are disappearing and being murdered in their hundreds. It's an area where there isn't even a basic bus service so women are forced to hitchhike to get to the city to access basic services and no one cares enough to change that.

It's rural enough that men know they can do what they like without there being any consequences. And a small minority have decided that what they want to do is rape and murder women

I don't believe there is something wrong with just Canadian men. I believe that given free rein, a depressing number of men anywhere would act in the same way. If the police took violence against women in this country seriously, our criminal justice system couldn't even cope with the number of offenders it'd be tasked to cope with.

So like hell am I going to say that self-id is ok and give predatory men (who might well be separate to TIMs) greater access to vulnerable women.

Sort out male violence and I'll happily consider changing my stance.

TheGrumpySquirrel · 23/01/2018 20:04

Hoping in vain that OP might see sense. I've still got to work up the courage to (re) broach the subject with my Canadian best friend who I know does not get it. At all.

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:05

Thanks Geronimo, will watch that.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:05

"Believing in feminine and masculine souls or spirits that can exist in bodies of the opposite sex is a faith based position. You are free to believe it but as it has no evidence base or factual context you are not free to force me to believe it or to legislate that society has to act as if it is true."

Yy.
And Yy curry, there is nothing wrong with being trans, even if op wants to mush your unique life experience into the "woman" box.

OrderMeACurry · 23/01/2018 20:05

I come at this from a philosophical perspective and that our internal self is our true self, not our bodies.

Suffering from gender dysphoria is far from a philosophical perspective. Bit insulting to suggest it is tbh.

Datun · 23/01/2018 20:06

Glitched

The reason you know you are female is because the minute you are born you were told so.

Who's mummy's gorgeous girl. There's a good girl.

As soon as you became sentient you would have noticed the physical difference between you and a boy.

You would have grown up, knowing, beyond doubt, you are a girl/female because you ARE one.

Your body and the way people treat you because of your body would be obvious.

It's not a feeling.

I can easily imagine a boy growing up, identifying with girls, wanting to be like girls. Because he sees what they play with, how they are treated, what they are praised for. And he wants that for himself.

He enjoys sparkles and glitter and wants to be affirmed in his choice.

It's entirely understandable, and completely natural.

It doesn't make him a girl. It makes him a boy who likes the trappings that girls get.

And he should absolutely have them.

Those things are gender. Gender is shit. It stops some boys getting what they want.

They have to say they are girls, to get it.

Again it's not difficult to understand. We get it.

What we are saying is stop gendering STUFF.

Let it become accessible to all.

Because, claiming you are a girl in order to access that stuff, actually dismisses and minimises what, in reality, away from all the good stuff, happens to girls based on their biology, not their preferences.

Please try and understand. Feminists want to eliminate gender in order that men can have what they want. And women, also, can have what they want.

ftw · 23/01/2018 20:06

One of us is wearing jeans and tshirt, the other one PJs.

Gonna need more info. Do the pjs have Batman on or puppies? Wink

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:06

Thanks yoda

I just though 'narrative' sounded posh Smile

NotAgainYoda · 23/01/2018 20:07

Rufus

An I used imbued! Get us Grin

Ereshkigal · 23/01/2018 20:07

I love the word "narrative". "Control the narrative". They do.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:07

Ftw, they're xmas PJs with candy canes on the trousers and a sleeping bulldog in an xmas hat on the top Grin