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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Trans friendly thread!

999 replies

100lbtolose · 23/01/2018 14:43

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me Grin this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
SomeRandomBird · 23/01/2018 17:34

Thanks for this thread OP, I am feminist and pro trans and it's always heartening to see there are others like me on Mumsnet.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 23/01/2018 17:35

SwerfyTerfy is a hero.

@BeyondWW

*“Are you unaware...of how many transwomen are murdered for their trans-ness?”

Ok, I’ll bite. I am unaware. How many? In this country/the world?*

Well, I can tell you that most of them are sex workers in Central / South America.

Also that according to Transrespect.org, the average number of transwomen murdered each year in the U.K. from 2008 to 2016 was....

0.89.

So that's good for transwomen in the U.K. isn't it?

Youcanstayundermyumbrella · 23/01/2018 17:36

SwerfyTerfy, thank you for your long post. Thank you.

Deadlylampshade · 23/01/2018 17:36

Still don’t understand how feminists are supposed to hate sex workers exactly, it’s not us beating them up or murdering them.

DjunaBarnes · 23/01/2018 17:38

@battlecunt - that article makes no sensible point about transphobia being a feminist issue - and it's entirely circular. It says that trans people face discrimination and that this is somehow a feminist issue because 1) that discrimination comes from the same people who discriminate against women - not that it is the same discrimination and 2) "trans women are women" - which isn't an argument it's a faith position

averylongtimeago · 23/01/2018 17:41

Lapdance and Beyond
Saved this interesting chart a few days ago, it may help.

Trans friendly thread!
Mummyoflittledragon · 23/01/2018 17:43

“Millions”. “Trillions”. “Genocide”

Nothing inflammatory about at all.

Why is swerfy terfy racist??

SwerfyTerfy · 23/01/2018 17:43

Transphobia is a trans issue. The clue is in the name.
Women can and will fight alongside transgenders, transsexuals and maybe even other genders so long as they don't identify as a toaster.

However, I can't see many women particularly the very fine women here picking up that gauntlet while women's rights are under threat and women are to face more oppression should self identification become a reality.
Of course, we'll seldom hear about it once it does. Talking about it will then be transphobic and bigoted and likely punishable by law (if not by violence, murder, rape or doxxing.)

I have yet to see a good argument for transphobia being a feminist issue. Most of them are along the lines of
"Because transwomen are women that's that nodebate let's celebrate ladypenis".

SwerfyTerfy · 23/01/2018 17:45

Mummyoflittledragon
My name is adopted from a common slur. I suppose she was referring to that, not me in particular.

littlebillie · 23/01/2018 17:45

This is a thread about a man's point of view on how women should think. Welcome to the 21st century we can no longer identify as women without a man defining it for us.

It's so liberating

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 17:46

Well that's no good to me, I want to identify as the mostest oppressedest ever. What can I be if not a self-identifying (transactivism variety of) transwoman -how else can I get enough oppression points for everyday feminism to publish my poetry?

hingedspeculum · 23/01/2018 17:46

Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me grin

Even if they are a dickhead? Is "allyhood", another self-proclaimed, self-congratulatory identity career. Declared to all and sundry to elevate you to being A Very Good Person. Who cares about the breadth of people that may exist that share that one characteristic, you're there to champion them, celebrate them, as an individual person, for having that one characteristic.

It's similar to those that approach my physically disabled boyfriend and immediately proclaim their bond; how there must be an instant rapport; have an immediate understanding of his life; have a right to access intimate details about his body, because "I'm heavily involved in the disabled community". Involvement that means stalking every opportunity where you can proclaim "I'm heavily involved in the disabled community".

Unlike Swerfy, a supporter of women, providing services and alleviating suffering, allyhood is about validation, to cream off a bit of the limelight for themselves. To all stand at the watering hole and repeat the same affirmation mantra and authenticate each other.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 17:48

I feel my posts are not entirely clear in how they are coming across, I may draw a line under my idea to self identify Grin

SwerfyTerfy · 23/01/2018 17:49

BeyondWW
Fuck the haters.
Set up a go fund me Wink

BattleCuntGalactica · 23/01/2018 17:49

LMAO

I'm going to need my bingo card cos I'm pretty sure I've got a full house here. 🙄

Blanchefleur · 23/01/2018 17:49

Amazing post, SwerfyTerfy.

Nineteenagain · 23/01/2018 17:49

SwerfyTerfy
Excellent post

DodoPatrol · 23/01/2018 17:50

OK, BattleCunt, I'll engage.

Where does something start being 'transphobia'? Which of the positions below do you adopt?

  1. Transwomen are women biologically, legally and genetically, without any permanent or even temporary modification of body, name, dress or behaviour, if they say so; and the moment they say so, anyone disagreeing is a bigot. The only exception to this category is biological women who cannot be biological transwomen-who-are-women, because biology.
  2. Transwomen are women biologically, legally and genetically, without any permanent modification of body, name, dress or behaviour.
3.Transwomen are women biologically, legally and genetically, if they permanently modify their name, dress or behaviour, but not their body.
  1. Transwomen are women biologically, legally and genetically, if they modify their name, dress, behaviour, and body.
  2. Transwomen are women, legally but not biologically, if they temporarily modify their name, dress, and behaviour (but not their body), even if that's only once a week.
  3. Transwomen are women, legally but not biologically, if they permanently modify their name, dress, behaviour and body.
  4. Transwomen are women, legally but not biologically, if they permanently modify their name, dress, behaviour and body, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and have obtained a GRC.
  5. Transwomen are men who have permanently modified their name, dress, behaviour and body, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and have obtained a GRC.

Or something else?

At which point of 'not buying this, sorry' from a listener do you tell them they are transphobic?

MsGameandWatching · 23/01/2018 17:51

Part of me wishes that no one had posted except for those who agree with the OP. Would have been interesting to see if there would have been a few as I suspect. I sense the tide is slowly turning actually, only a few months ago such a thread thread would have been full of "trans women are women, end of" nonsense. I'd love to have seen a near silent thread, which I think I would have.

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle · 23/01/2018 17:51

@SwerfyTerfy
Fantastic post thank you.

For all the trans activists...care to answer any of the respectful, polite posts asking many, many sensible questions?

Any actual debate?
No?

You cannot call yourselves either progressive or liberal, unless you are willing to debate.
Any attempt at no platforming/shutting down debate is the tactic of dictators and those who know they don't have the answers.

If you are so convinced of your righteousness... why refuse debate??!

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 17:52

Without going off on a tangent again, I would still genuinely like to know (from op or even any of the self identified "pro trans" posters) if it is okay for me to self identify as a transwoman?

Not nonbinary or gender fluid or whatever, a transwoman

Maryz · 23/01/2018 17:52

Have we had a definition of "woman" yet that includes all women who were born with XY chromosomes AND people who want to "live as a woman" but excludes men?

Or a definition for "living as a woman"?

Once we have those, this thread might make a bit more sense, but saying "everyone can have their own opinion" doesn't fit with "but don't post it here if you don't agree with me".

joystir59 · 23/01/2018 17:52

Why the LGBT board? I am L and don't welcome the T at all. LGB isabout sexual orientation. T is about gender and trans ideology which says Trans is about ID and not biology is actually homophobic.

SwerfyTerfy · 23/01/2018 17:52

BattleCuntGalactica
Please leave the immature jokes at the door; nothing will ever move forward without discussion.

I am asking you, what about these posts, any of them, do you find transphobic?
If there are transphobic posts here I will be extremely grateful to know - it's a big thread, I may have missed them. I will report them and follow up to MNHQ with an email.
Thanks again, though I suspect you will get again fail to respond.

SwerfyTerfy · 23/01/2018 17:54

Yet again. ^
It appears my iPhone is winning the autocorrect battle.
I do hope you'll be able to answer my question Battle