Ok so someone educate me about neo vaginas **Title edited by MNHQ at the OP's request**

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Because lot of people on twitter appear to think that women piss out of their vaginas.

So with that particular piece of 'advanced biology', what happens with a newly constructed vagina?

And er. maybe some will be disappointed with the plumbing?

I agree with Lass. The thread title alone is horrible.

It is fair enough to draw attention to the fact that this is major surgery, with variable outcomes (and the outcomes for phalloplasty are even poorer) and campaign against it being pushed on children/teens as an easy/ desirable thing to have done. It is also fair enough to point out that the vagina is a complex organ, with certain unique sexual functions, and part of an incredibly complex set of reproductive organs and a complex endocrine system which work together to make gestating a foetus to term possible, and that a neo-vagina can at best be a fairly crude attempt at producing a simulacrum of this (and the attempt to produce a simulacrum comes with a whole set of male-centred beliefs about the role of vaginas in men's sexual pleasure, which is a feminist issue).

But it really isn't on to be so nastily dismissive of adults' attempts to modify their bodies to alleviate the symptoms of dysphoria, however misguided you think those attempts may be.

The penis is in three sections with the glans at the end. They rearrange it so the glans forms the clitoris

Or rather the bit that resembles the visible part of the clitoris.

I agree with Lass. The thread title alone is horrible

It doesn't sound good, but I think the OP has probably spent too long reading the Twitter of TRA GFs, so it probably did not seem that bad at the time.

It is a good idea to think of what the important issues are and the expectations of young people compared to the reality of surgery are important.

It was not my intention to mock or offend. Last night on twitter there was some conversation about the understanding of females anatomy which was seriously flawed. Given that males do not have a urethra, I was wondering about the actual construction in a neovagina. By the tweets it was obvious that many transmales don't know what it is either.

I am sorry that it comes across as offensive.

APAB
Do you have a link to this conversation?

Given that males do not have a urethra

Yes they do?

Whilst the wording of the OP might be flippant, the subject matter is important, particularly in relation to the transing of children.

There was a YouTube film that was widely publicised in mainstream media showing the surgical creation of a neovagina.

I didn't, couldn't watch it. Particularly after reading the first few comments. As it was pretty grim.

In the same way I don't want to watch an appendectomy or brain surgery.

I don't think there is a woman here who would willingly, out of the blue, drill down into what genital surgery means, looks like and all it's implications, if it wasn't the end goal for a lot of people who transition. And even then, if it was only adults who were involved.

There is an inherent misogyny around the narrative to do with neovaginas. And like everything else to do with this ideology, women aren't generating this discourse, they are reacting to it.

Men informing youngsters on the Internet that women urinate from their vaginas and that a surgically created hole is indistinguishable from a vagina need to be challenged.

And the information being disseminated to schools never, ever includes a section on what the implications are of surgery.

Because that would interfere with the whole celebratory atmosphere of gender affirmation that is being disseminated. With cake parties and the immediate elevation in status recommended for children questioning their sex.

I truly, truly do not want to read about this, but if it pulls a child or parent up short and forces them to realise the potential implications of what they are doing, then I will bloody do it. And talk about it.

The 2000 children year who are questioning their sex absolutely need every bit of information available. Not just the grim bits about surgery, but about gender and it's hierarchical implications in general. All of it.

I think it's critical that this kind of discussion takes place. If perhaps the thread title said 'educate' instead of indulge me it might perhaps strike a different tone to others, although I think that's splitting hairs and the intent remains.

I think the more people, male and female that have a robust grasp of what a female body is and what it is not, the better. I'm sure some of us have read about the internal structure of the female clitoris and been gobsmacked that we have never been taught this and that it is deemed irrelevant by a male dominated medical establishment.
This week a transexual poster blithely announced that their body was now very similar to any woman's, and as a woman, I refute that claim since it involves a direct comparison to my own anatomy.

Let's air facts. The discussion will be civil and factual. Let's not shy away from specifics. This sort of discussion is badly needed.

I meant urethra as a separate 'hole' rather than as part of the penis for men. That's why I said 'indulge me' because I was not sure how it could be changed from the male to female. As I said, I wasn't trying to be offensive or flippant, I was curious about the actual construction and how it differed from an actual vagina, and also the expectation of how it differed. It was late and I was tired.
Please report the thread and ask for it to be deleted by all means.

Yes I agree that while the OP may have seemed a bit flippant it is quite an important discussion.

This idea that a vagina is nothing more than a 'hole' is really quite misogynistic.

Yes, educate me would have been better barracker

I totally agree that the conversation needs to be had. I think we also need to talk about phalloplasty, since there is a huge number of teenage girls now identifying as transboys (and social contagion/ comorbid mental health issues seem to be a major factor in this). I read a pdf - produced by a group of surgeons who perform phalloplasty, so not anti the whole idea by any stretch of the imagination) which detailed the complications and loss of sexual function at each stage in the process. Girls need to be told that they can't magically have a male penis grafted on to them, that what they will get is a tube of skin and considerable loss in orgasm (no uterine contractions, no vaginal contractions, possible complications in attaching the external part of the clitoris to the end of the tube of skin). Not to mention the risk of infection attendant on closing skin over the remains of the vaginal opening. Phalloplasty has a huge failure rate - in fact there was a recent tragic case of a young person in Belgium who chose assisted suicide because they could not live with the after-effects of a botched phalloplasty.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth

Don't get the thread deleted. Just ask mumsnet to change the title. They are always willing to do that.

PricklyBall

I'm confused about phalloplasty. As I said, it's not an area that I like to google too much. All other areas, yes. But my phone has shown me images before that I wish could unsee.

As far as I know the (?) neopenis cannot become erect? Unless a metal rod is used? Is that something that gets taken on and off? Or permanently implanted, somehow?

It's not much of a surprise to me that very few women have this surgery, to be honest.

There does seem to be a plethora of information on the net about neovagina plastic surgery, but the phalloplasty info seems to miss a lot of important bits out - like how to attach the graft they have created from tummy/arm/leg skin/muscle or wherever.

Based on the pdf I read, the neo-penis itself is made out of a tube of flesh formed from a graft taken from the forearm or thigh, and permanently attached. The urethra is extended again with skin grafts (this is complex, as you can't use "hairy" skin, obviously). I believe (may have misunderstood the diagram) that the clitoris is usually left in place at the bottom of the shaft near the newly closed up perineum (too complicated to move, I guess).

My understanding is that a flexible polymer tube and mini-pump (within one of the artificially fashioned testicles) are used to make the neo-penis erect. It's a technique originally used in men post prostate-cancer surgery to treat male erectile dysfunction.

The whole thing sounds horrendous to me, and the results seem very poor indeed. I gather that most TIFs prefer either to leave things alone (testosterone will enlarge the clitoris slightly) or have a medioplasty performed, where the clitoris is freed from the surrounding tissue and ends up looking a bit like a very small penis.

Good idea Datun, thanks

My understanding is that a flexible polymer tube and mini-pump (within one of the artificially fashioned testicles) are used to make the neo-penis erect.

So there is a pump inside a testicle? How is it operated?

Yes

www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=216929.0

Thread where transwomen discuss postoperative issues such as scars, internal hairballs, odour, male ejaculate, dilation, and loss of orgasm.

there was an interesting interview recently on radio 4, it was a woman who had wanted to be male all her life, and through puberty had taken male hormones etc.
Then aged 20, she changed her mind and remained a woman.
She said something that really shocked me, due to how ill informed people are on this point. She was highlighting the problems of puberty blockers for both sexes.

She said that if you do not go through puberty in your original body, then your sex organs internally and externally never develop.
What that means in practice is that while you can do a resaonable construction using a male penis to make a vagina, if you have been on puberty blockers, you only have a tiny, sexually immature boy's penis, and not only do you not have enough there to make a vagina, but because it never matured sexually, you can never use those parts to try and get sexual sensation in the new vagina.
So male or female, you are condemed to a life with no mature sexual sensation or orgasm.

So, yet another reason why puberty blockers are a disaster.

no idea if this is true.

I struggle to see what is offensive about the thread title. "Indulge me about X" is a fairly common form of words that MNers use when asking for a subject to be explained to them.

So, yet another reason why puberty blockers are a disaster.
no idea if this is true.

Completely true. That's what's happened to Jazz Jennings.