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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ok so someone educate me about neo vaginas **Title edited by MNHQ at the OP's request**

409 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 04/01/2018 00:46

Because lot of people on twitter appear to think that women piss out of their vaginas.

So with that particular piece of 'advanced biology', what happens with a newly constructed vagina?

And er. maybe some will be disappointed with the plumbing?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
hipsterfun · 13/01/2018 15:24

I thought the same, Bat.

Self-ID taken to the limit, perhaps?

Terrylene · 13/01/2018 19:32

Someone who's posts used to pop up on my facebook announced that their surgery was so painful it was the same as a lifetime of periods Confused

I just thought 'nah, it is like the small prolapse repair I had after a lifetime of periods, 1 mc, 1singleton and twins, in that it hurts a lot and you need a catheter.......' bollox to that.

IcedCocoa · 13/01/2018 20:36

I know, how is it fine to co-opt women’s experiences but not any other minority group?!? A male born person has NO idea what it feels like to have any female reproductive pain at all. Different pain, yes, comparable pain - who really knows?

QuackPorridgeBacon · 16/01/2018 23:05

I can’t help but wonder what it looks like... I don’t want to google as I don’t want to see it. But I can’t help but imaging what it must look like. Even worse is imagining what a fake penis would look like. It must be ok though. I’m gross though for wondering I reckon. Blush

I’ve enjoyed the thread. Reading Rachel’s posts have been quite refreshing and interesting.

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 18:53

I know it's been over a year since the last post here, but there's a lot of misinformation posted. As a post-operative female I would like to respond. There is too much to clear up in one go, so I wil only address the main issues.

Firstly, every embryo starts off female, all of them start with a clitoris. If the embryo becomes male, then the clitoris grows and becomes a penis, so to call it a female penis is factually incorrect, in fact, every male has a an enlarged clitoris. The penis and clitoris are biological homologues. The labia minora form from the same skin that becomes the foreskin. All of the skin, glands and structures of the penis and scrotum have identical homologues in the vagina and vulva, which is what makes sex change possible.

Secondly, there are three main types of vaginoplasty: Penile Inversion, Colon and Skin Graft. Penile Inversion has no mucus membrane and so is not self cleaning. Colon and Skin Graft do have a mucus membrane and are self cleaning. I had Skin Graft vaginoplasty, which was taken from inside the scrotum and grown on a stent. The scrotal skin is a homologue of the vaginal lining, in that it secretes hormones and lubricants in the same way as a natal vagina. This vagina feels, looks and smells identical to a natal female. Neovagina's can also be grown from cells in a lab.

Thirdly, as someone with a grown neovagina, I can orgasm vaginally the same as any other woman and have the same g-spot sensation, as this is linked to the bulb of the clitoris touching the vaginal canal.

Lastly, SRS surgery is on the increase, not decrease. The majority of patients with gender dysphoria will seek and get surgery, the only limitation to this is money and the lack of available surgeons. The only people who truly decide against it are transgender people, who are comfortable with their body as it is.

I am happy to answer any other questions and may well address some of the other questions asked in this thread.

allmywhat · 03/07/2019 19:07

I have a question!

How can you say you orgasm "in the same way as a... woman" when you can't have vaginal contractions, you can't have uterine contractions, even before surgery your genitals had only half the number of nerve endings that a woman's genitals have, and even the dopamine receptors in your brain are different from a woman's?

Follow up question: don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you to imagine you know what a woman's experience of orgasm is like?

You can have orgasms, good for you. You can't have orgasms in the same way as a woman, and you certainly don't have the epistemic standpoint to claim that you do.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 19:14

Firstly, every embryo starts off female

No at conception each potential ebryo will be either male or female depending on whether XX or XY (presuming no DSD)

You are misrepresenting biology & embryo development.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 19:20

Lastly, SRS surgery is on the increase, not decrease. The majority of patients with gender dysphoria will seek and get surgery, the only limitation to this is money and the lack of available surgeons.

Fairplay for Women:
"The vast majority of male-born transwomen still have a penis"
(extract)
"No one knows for sure how many transwomen keep their penis, but there are fewer than 10 surgeons in the UK who can undertake the relevant operation. Even if they each performed one operation every single day this would still only represent an absolute maximum of 3,500 surgeries each year. The actual number performed is likely to be very much smaller than this. An estimate of just a few hundred operations each year would not be unreasonable.

There is also data available from the US HERE showing that genital surgery is very rare. In this study (sampling 20% of all outpatient hospital discharges in the US) there were only a few hundred genital surgeries performed each year. (205 in 2012, 250 in 2013, 345 in 2014). This suggests that between 1000-2000 genital surgeries were performed across the whole of the US each. If the trans community in the US represents 1% of the US population this means we’d expect there to be in the region of 3 million people identifying as trans in the US. This means less than 0.1% of the trans community undergoes genital surgery each year supporting our conclusion that the vast majority of males who identify as women retain their penis."
fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 19:43

allmywhat

You make some very good points and once again these are part of the overal thinking that "you were a man, how can you" series of questions.

On your first point, if you had a full abdominal hysterectomy, would you stop having orgasms? If you were born without a uterus, would you stop having orgasms? Of course not.

Do I have have vaginal contractions? Yes of course I do, I have exactly the same muscle structure as a natal female. My muscles contract the same way as any other female. I have clitoral orgams, I have vaginal orgams and I have blended orgasms, and there is no correlation between those and male orgams, they are completely different. My vaginal canal contracts in the same way as yours, becomes lubricated the same way as yours, and I have the same risk with thrush and BV as you could have. The only thing different is I have no cervix, but neither does many women who have lost theirs to cancer.

The brain of a post-operative female is the same as a natal female, the dopamine receptors are identical. The male and female human being is identical apart from one thing - hormones. The more estrogen there is, the more the brain feminises.

In regards to your followup question, I was born with a DSD, I did not choose to be classed as male. Even before transition, my testosterone levels were the same as a natal female. Part of the problem here is the "them and us" attitude. The hormones we have at puberty merely give us our secondary sex characteristics, which means the only thing I cannot do as a post-operative female is give birth naturally. But that will be possible in the future, as science is already growing uteruses and ovaries from stem cells which will be implantable back inside us. If I had wide enough hips I would be able to give birth naturally.

To say that I can't have orgasms like a woman and don't have the epistemic standpoint is both hurtful and borderline transphobic, but I will take it, as its a viewpoint that has to be addressed. I have always considered myself to be female, I had treatment for a condition to lead a somewhat normal life, but because of a large amount of misinformation and misunderstanding in society, you always assume we were men and are still men and can't possibly know what it's like to be a woman.

What happened to feminism and equality?

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 19:47

R0wantrees

You have somewhat answered your own question, the X in each chromosome is female, the Y is just a deterorating junk chromosome which could allow the embryo to develop into a male, but that's not always the case.

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 19:49

R0wantrees

You are referring to trans women, which encompasses a wide array of different sub categories, including transvestites, cross dressers, non-binary and transgender.

I am talking about transsexuals.

SomeDyke · 03/07/2019 19:52

Neovagina's can also be grown from cells in a lab.

Yep, but only for those persons who are actually female hence have the existing tissues and genes to do the job.

institutions.newscientist.com/article/dn25399-engineered-vaginas-grown-in-women-for-the-first-time/

They're not 'neovaginas' in this case. But hey, nice appropriation of the experience of females with MRKH.

(arse/elbow, CHECK, penis/clitoris, CHECK, we can tell the difference!)

FermatsTheorem · 03/07/2019 19:55

ZOMBIE ALERT!

May I suggest that we just quietly let this attempt to revive an old thread and use it to shamelessly appropriate women's lived experience just die the death and slide down the list of active threads?

sakura184 · 03/07/2019 19:58

A feminist takedown of the neovagina and how it's not an organ attached to other organs like an actual vagina but is instead a cavity designed for the accommodation of a penis ( which is what the mysoginystic medical profession regard a vagina to be)

www.google.com/amp/s/factcheckme.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/sorry-sex-pos-transwomen/amp/

JackyHolyoake · 03/07/2019 20:03

Oh dear!

On your first point, if you had a full abdominal hysterectomy, would you stop having orgasms? If you were born without a uterus, would you stop having orgasms? Of course not.

The female orgasm is nothing to do with the uterus.

No surgically constructed peritoneal cavity, lined with the skin of a penis or colon or other part of the digestive system, is in any way equivalent with the muscular structure that is the birth canal aka the vagina.

DpWm · 03/07/2019 20:04

As a post-operative female I would like to respond
Hmm
You mean as a transwomen. No operation can turn a man into a female.

In fact, every male has a an enlarged clitoris
No they have pee-though-it a penis. You can't pee through a clit and it doesn't come with a pair of balls.

Good grief.
But sorry yes let's not resurrect the zombie

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2019 20:07

This is also worth a read (apologies for the length but the original seems to have been removed)

On Being Defined by Your Vagina

So often, on a corner of the internet somewhere, a MtF who wants to share in female oppression complains that women should not be “defined by their vaginas.” They lament that women speak as though we are one big giant walking vagina and that we could and should just quit thinking about our oh so unimportant nether regions.

The mistake that men, and thus “trans women,” make, is assuming that having a vagina is analogous to having a dick.

Having a dick is no big deal. Sometimes you stick it in something and it feels good, and that’s the end of the significance of having a dick. Having a dick is like having an elbow. To men, it doesn’t make any more sense to be defined by your dick than it does to be defined by your elbow.

The ability to see your sexual organ as a mere body part is a male privilege. Men are uniquely able to disassociate from their sex organs, their sex, and reproduction. Men are uniquely able to see sex organs as unrelated to social standing, their safety or even their likelihood of raising a child. The fact that men can’t tell that having a vagina is not analagous to having a dick shows a tremendous lack of imagination — in other words, people who don’t have vaginas don’t know what it’s like to have them. Imagine that. It’s almost as if men aren’t good representatives for what being a woman is all about.

Males are able to imagine, and do imagine, that penises and vaginas are both things you might perform sex on or with and little more.

The fact that any male considers a “neovagina” to be even remotely similar to a vagina attests to that fact. The neovagina is nothing more than a sheath for a penis, and only a male person with male privilege thinks of a vagina as largely a dick holder.

It’s probably pretty hard for a male to imagine living with the responsibility of having a vagina. With the knowledge that if you’re not ever-vigiliant, 24/7 for the thirty years in which you are fertile, an entire human being might come out of your body and demand every resource you have or can acquire for the next twenty plus years. Yes, even infertile women, who generally don’t know they’re infertile until they try to have children. And yes, even sexually inactive women and lesbians, because rape exists and is common.

While men are failing to get their socks into the laundry hamper every week, most heterosexual women are remembering to take a pill on time every single day with life or death consequences if they fail. While men are skipping their physical for the third year in a row, women are scheduling and making it to the doctor’s visits that make acquiring that birth control possible. To say nothing of the tremendous responsibility a woman faces if she does conceive, carry, bear and raise a child.

Our vaginas bathe us in blood a quarter of the time, requiring our attention every hour, demanding of us care and laundry chores and expense of which males cannot dream. For many of us, endometriosis and fibroids and hemorrhaging and miscarriages and abortions and ablations and D&Cs and PCOS and UTIs and vulvodynia and vagismus and yeast infections and menopause are a concern.

What concerns do male reproductive organs bring? Cancer, which also happens to female reproductive organs, and everyone’s non-reproductive organs.

And because rape exists and is common, and largely happens to women, and has far greater consequences for female victims than for male victims, our vaginas limit our movement through the world. There are places and situations and hours of the evening in which we simply don’t go, or we watch our back and don’t have any fun when we do go, because those places and situations and hours of the evening are full of people who want to hurt us. They want to hurt us because we have vaginas. If they wanted to hurt us because we wear lipstick, then believe me, we’d sometimes wipe the lipstick off and get out there and enjoy all the sights and sounds that the world has to offer, any time of day or night. It’s easy for someone — a male — to imagine that oppression is about wearing lipstick, because wearing lipstick is the only part of “being a woman” he has experience with. And males hate to feel left out.

And then there’s all that other stuff. The being told we’re stupid and bad at math. The war against our health needs. The pathologizing of our personalities. The unequal pay and impaired access to certain clubs and careers and political positions. Our absence as characters in books and movies. The denial of ourselves as fully human.

The denial of our sexuality except in relation to whether it benefits men. The rigged system that punishes us no matter how we use our vaginas sexually, whether a little (prude), a lot (slut), or never (spinster). The ubiquitous and enthusiastic portrayal of our abuse, and the sexualization of it, in advertisements, in television shows, in porn. These are things that happen to people with vaginas. When we try to forget about them, someone reminds us that they make us vulnerable, that they make us lesser, that they make us unclean, that they make us stupid.

Oppression isn’t tied to male bodies.

Oppression is tied to female bodies. It’s no wonder that males who can opt in or out of oppression don’t understand what it’s like to live in an oppressed body.

Even if we could quit thinking about our vaginas, other people, especially men, would continue to remind us, with every move we make, that we have them.

For men, the significance of a vagina lies in its use for fucking. For women, its role in fucking is the least of its significance.

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 20:07

SomeDyke

Cells are not male or female, they are homologues, they are controlled only by hormones, so your findings are somewhat incorrect.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2019 20:08

I should add, that the above is not my work. I have not attached the author's name as they have chosen to remove the piece.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2019 20:10

Cells are not male or female

All cells contain chromosomes. Including XX or XY. In 99% of cases all cells will be XX or all cells will be XY.

You are incorrect.

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 20:11

JackyHolyoake

The female orgasm is nothing to do with the uterus.

We agree, maybe this was aimed at the person who asked me the question.

No surgically constructed peritoneal cavity, lined with the skin of a penis or colon or other part of the digestive system, is in any way equivalent with the muscular structure that is the birth canal aka the vagina.

Good, as mine was not constructed from the skin of a penis or any part of the digestive system. My pelvic floor musclular structure is identical to yours.

sakura184 · 03/07/2019 20:12

The uterus can contract in an orgasm

LucyAmethyst · 03/07/2019 20:19

DpWm

You mean as a transwomen. No operation can turn a man into a female.

Well unfortunately it can, and it did! Maybe you should learn up on how nature also can turn a male into a female.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change

No they have pee-though-it a penis. You can't pee through a clit and it doesn't come with a pair of balls.

Hmmmm, maybe you should also learn up on the clitoris too, as there are species that do pee through it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris

Also, you are assuming that every woman who walks the planet doesn't have balls. Some have two testes, others one and one ovary, some guys have two ovaries, others one. Again pointers to our biological homologue. You assume I am a man, but you know nothing about my situation or treatment, not a very good advertisement for feminism and equality.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2019 20:26

Well unfortunately it can, and it did! Maybe you should learn up on how nature also can turn a male into a female.

No. It really, really can't. And humans are not clownfish.

Hmmmm, maybe you should also learn up on the clitoris too, as there are species that do pee through it.

Just because something occurs in another species does not mean it is relevant to humans. How many humans photosynthesise for example?

Also, you are assuming that every woman who walks the planet doesn't have balls. Some have two testes, others one and one ovary, some guys have two ovaries, others one.

Women do not have testes. Men do not ovaries. A very small minority of people have disorders of sexual development - these individuals have asked not to be co-opted by the trans movement and I think you should respect that.

Barracker · 03/07/2019 20:26

LucyAmethyst whilst I hope you're happy with your own body, stop declaring it to be 'like a female' 'like yours' 'like a clitoris' or referencing females and OUR BODIES.

My body is nothing like yours.
I am the opposite sex to you.
My body is the opposite sex to yours.
Your surgery has not rendered MY body any more similar to yours than it is to any man's.
I will not stand for you pronouncing incorrectly on my own, female, body.
Say what you want about your own.

But don't use me or female bodies as your comparator. Don't reference us, because you are utterly wrong about OUR bodies, about which you apparently know nothing, other than what misogyny has taught you.

I'll be reporting any further posts of yours which I feel inaccurately represent, insult, or denigrate MY female body, or declare it an appropriate comparator with a male, surgically altered one.
You don't get to tell me what I am to make yourself feel that you are somehow like me.

This forum is full of women, with female bodies. We know what we are.

We are not your mirror.

Show some respect.