“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

Can you please give me an example of 'interests' do you mean RF-You are taking things away from us, TRA-You will think how I want you to think?

By 'Move on' do you mean stop organising?

By discussing past shaping us do you mean, people do what they do to survive?

Even 'genuine' transgender people are not women. I would argue there is no such condition as genuine transgenderism. If gender is a harmful social construct then how can there be something 'genuine' about it?

I believe transwomen are women because “woman” is a societal construct

Can you expand a bit on this please, bananasaregood?

I believe transwomen are women because “woman” is a societal construct

That’s the funniest and stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

Ignoring use of the term ‘woman’ in a way that might be inappropriate, let’s accept that ‘being a woman’ is a social construct and all ‘women’ are, from now on, self identified.

How does that translate to rape services and sex-segregated bathrooms?

“But having said that anyone who thinks sex chromosomes are a simple binary needs to do a bit more than high school biology.”

Can you say more about this?

MrsKCastle, when you dream are you male or female?

Just seen this, I'm not sure how to respond. I would say neither- in my dreams I have barely any sense of self, more like way hing a movie than anything. I can't imagine feeling either male or female when dreaming.

Googling the phrase "Trans women are women"60,000 hits. "Trans men are men"23,000 hits. So the ontological claim is more frequent for TIMs rather than TIFs.

Although the claim is now applied even to men who have not taken steps to physically transition, like Lily Madigan, I wonder if the intuition is derived from the fact that people can more easily imagine SRS creating a "vagina"? (Cf. BeyondAssignation's point.)

They are not biological,women, but trans women.

I believe transwomen are women because “woman” is a societal construct

If this were true all females could simply identify themselves out of oppression. Hmm...

Anyone who thinks human sex chromosomes are not binary needs to do a bit more than high school maths.

CoteDAzur

"Can you please explain what you mean by “function in society outwardly as a woman“ ?"

Mimic women. That's what they mean*

I am a woman. I was born female and have the caesarean scars to show for it.

But if they want to mimic me they need to ditch the handbags, make up, stilettos and dresses and buy themselves some steel toe capped boots and a hard hat

“I believe transwomen are women because “woman” is a societal construct”

So what is the name for an adult human who is of the class that produces eggs?

Not a social construct, but a biological one. You are either born XY and are Male and will become a man later on, or XX Female who will become a woman later on. Unless you have a disorder whereby the person has a disorder.

I think Bertrand has hit the nail on the head and the answer is probably shortly going to be something like "natal woman" or AFAB.

A man, however much he changes his outward appearance, will always biologically be Male, as you cannot change your chromosomes, and same with a woman, she will always be biologically Female. Man and woman, boy and girl are based on the biological sex of that baby, not a social construct at all.

Tuna
By move on, I mean find ways to meet the needs/interests/wants of women and trans women (although other gnc people have needs too, this forum mostly focuses on W and TW).

The interests of many feminists on this board are, for example, having some spaces and services that are sex segregated (not gender segregated) and sporting competition being divided by natal sex. These interests relate to safety and equal playing fields.

In relation to this trans activist’s interests include removing sex segregation and replacing it with gender identity segregation. This interest lays in validating gender identity and limiting exclusion.

Here, discussion can move on to exploring how, as far as possible, we can provide sex segregation whilst also, where possible, validating gender identity and limiting exclusion.

There won’t be a magic solution, and some won’t even want to come to the negotiating table, but I think a focus on interests rather than positions would enhance the discussion

natal woman/AFAB
It’s just semantics.

By that, I do not mean I have given up the fight for language. Not at all.

I guess what I’m asking the Glitcheds of this world is: forget the labels for a moment and tell me how we ensure the safety, privacy and dignity of those with vulvas/vaginas (whatever you wish to call them).

When we're talking about "living as a woman", why is it almost exclusively about outward appearances?

I've yet to read the transition story that details how a male bodied person has

• done all of the emotional labour over Christmas sweated over buying the "right" present for their inlaws, stayed up until one am wrapping presents, cooked a four course Christmas dinner while everyone else loafs around and then asked where the bread sauce is, and then cried in the kitchen for an hour while swigging sherry
• has taken a 17 % pay cut
• has been passed over for promotion at work because they are part time and have to focus on their kids

• has chucked in their career in order to take care of their elderly in-laws

...and as a result of doing these things (which are very typically associated with women in our culture) suddenly realised that they are in fact a woman!

it's always about feelings, and outer trappings. Never about the way the world works for women.

Because they are oblivious to it.

'Social construct' and 'identifying as' are different things.

'Identifying as' is more to do with the internal sense of identity.

Social constructs include things like money and countries/nationality. They are constructed by the whole of society, e.g. money has exchange value simply because everybody agrees that it does. Immigration rules say that we can't just identify into being a different nationality. If 'woman' is a social construct that doesn't mean we can simply identify our way out of it any more than we could simply invent a new currency and expect everybody else to agree it has exchange value.

I'm interested in what the social construct 'woman' consists of though. I can't think of a socially constructed category 'woman' that would include both me and a transwoman.

Trans women are just that: trans women.
This is a perfectly valid and valuable thing to be.
But they are not biological women.

@thefox

You keep pushing gender stereotypes. Why?

Trans women are just that: trans women.
This is a perfectly valid and valuable thing to be.
But they are not biological women.

This.
I resent being made out to be a nasty, intolerant bigot because I won't play along with the make believe.

Exactly Caution, I totally agree, the difference between a biological woman, and a transwoman has to be defined, they are not the same and never will be. Its like saying a white man (who has tanned his skin, and braided his hair) who identifies as an black African person, is a fully black person, that would be ridiculous and disrespectful, same here with the whole trans woman are real women, no they are not! Same with transmen, they are not real men, they are trans.

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women.