Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

“Transwomen are women”

599 replies

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 09:33

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 27/12/2017 15:08

Glitched
I would exclude where ‘health and safety’ includes ‘mental health’.

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 15:10

"like trans people and their feelings are somehow the property of everyone else."

I don't give a shiny shit about what transwomen feel like. That's not what we are talking about. They can feel like a fish, cat, extraterrestrial, king of the hill, or queen of the town. It doesn't matter one bit to this debate.

We are talking about what transwomen are and that is male and therefore not women. Feelings have nothing to do with whether one is male or female, boy or girl, man or woman.

Just like cattle's feelings have fuck all to do with whether they are cows or bulls, and chicken's feelings have fuck all to do with whether they are hens or roosters.

ATeardropExplodes · 27/12/2017 15:10

@Glitched

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women.

Can I ask again, what is the difference between a biological woman and a non-biological woman?

Glitched · 27/12/2017 15:12

@teardrop

A biological woman has a female body.

Pansiesandredrosesandmarigolds · 27/12/2017 15:13

It’s a circular argument. If you think a woman is a human with xx chromosomes, ovaries, etc... then of course trans women can’t be women. If you don’t then you don’t.

PencilsInSpace · 27/12/2017 15:13

A bit of both. The mind is a product of the brain and as such a biological component.

How then can there be women trapped in men's bodies?

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:14

I don't give a shiny shit about what transwomen feel like. That's not what we are talking about. They can feel like a fish, cat, extraterrestrial, king of the hill, or queen of the town. It doesn't matter one bit to this debate.

No. And pandering to these feelings and being expected to put our own aside without a second thought has caused all these problems. And this extra tension.

ATeardropExplodes · 27/12/2017 15:14

A biological woman has a female body.

I know that, I have one.

So by definition you are saying that a non-biological woman has a male body?

MsBeaujangles · 27/12/2017 15:15

Bertrand....I think this is on task!
I argue that we hold multiple senses of self and this changes according to time and context (my sense of me as a mother, colleague, partner has changed over time etc). This fluidity helps us navigate the complexities of being social beings.
Some of us are invested in not having a gender identity because we believe gender is an confining concept. For those that invest in having a gid, what function does it serve. I imagine there are different answers for different people. I also expect gids mostly seek to keep undesirable ‘things’ at bay rather than to move towards something positive/desireable.

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:17

It’s a circular argument. If you think a woman is a human with xx chromosomes, ovaries, etc... then of course trans women can’t be women. If you don’t then you don’t.

That's the objective definition of woman as adult human female. Not a circular argument. What is the objective definition of "woman" for "transwomen are women"?

TunaSushi · 27/12/2017 15:22

What is the objective definition of "woman" for "transwomen are women"?

Owen Jones from the Guardian encourages the chant, therefore it is!

guardianfree · 27/12/2017 15:25

@ItsChristmasmoose
You say: "It's like straight people debating whether gay people exist or not, are suffering from a defect or not and are right or wrong in the way they feel. It's none of your business to decide that for people. "

So in your world men get to redefine women, men decide that a penis is now a female organ, men decide that women are to abandon sex segregated spaces in favour of born males, men decide that lesbians are to have sex with born males or be called transphobic and that's OK?

It's actually none of their business to decide that for women.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 15:32

@teardrop

A woman with a male body, yes. She may choose to label her body with female names to help her. Or not. Or she may choose to transition.

This also applies to men trapped in women's bodies.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 15:34

And I repeat my earlier question- what is the word for an adult human of the class that can produce eggs?

OP posts:
ButteredScone · 27/12/2017 15:34

There aren't women with male bodies.

Just men with confused ideas about gender.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 15:35

Glitched, would you mind telling me the process that led to you thinking what you do?

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 27/12/2017 15:35

How do people get trapped in the wrong sexed body?

SophoclesTheFox · 27/12/2017 15:36

christmoose, it's really not comparable with being gay.

The statement "transwomen are women" is not the same as "gay people exist".

But, in passing, you must surely be able to see that if transwomen are women, then penises can be women's sex organs, and where does that leave lesbians who don't want to have relationships with people with penises?

If anything, your position is the one that's comparable to campaigning against gay and lesbian rights.

ATeardropExplodes · 27/12/2017 15:36

A woman with a male body, yes. She may choose to label her body with female names to help her. Or not. Or she may choose to transition.

So all a man needs to do is to have one thought and that immediately makes him a woman? Or is to two thoughts, 10, 100, 1000? What is the defining point of the change from man to woman? What is the difference? What do these thoughts have to consist of to be considered female?

What parts of his body would he be labelling with female names if he is a man? Is that where you think the term ladydick comes from?

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:36

"Woman trapped in a man's body" is trite, meaningless nonsense. And it applies to old school transsexual types, not the new breed of "transgender" cross dressers and misogynistic TAs. Not even trans people use this expression now.

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 15:40

Nobody is trapped in any body. You are your body.

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:41

Yes, exactly. So a male bodied person is a male with a male brain i.e. a boy or a man.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 15:46

My position is clear. You can all have a go if you want. I'm not going to rehash the same argument over and over again.

@bertrand
I don't have a process. I accept that a tiny minority of people that look like men are in fact women and that not all trans people are lying or insane, but genuine women with the wrong body.

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:49

Your position makes no sense. We're pointing that out, not "having a go".

Elendon · 27/12/2017 15:49

It's like straight people debating whether gay people exist or not

No it's not. Being gay has nothing whatsoever to do with whether transwomen are women.

Sexuality and sex are two different things. Gender is a social construct.