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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

“Transwomen are women”

599 replies

BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 09:33

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

OP posts:
Glitched · 27/12/2017 15:49

@cote

No. You are you mind. I guess we have to fundamentally disagree.

ATeardropExplodes · 27/12/2017 15:51

My position is clear. You can all have a go if you want. I'm not going to rehash the same argument over and over again.

I am trying to work out the transition process. At what point does a man become a woman? Nobody seems to be able to determine the process or the thoughts that undermine this.

genuine women with the wrong body

But that IS their body, their brain, the one with the neurons firing in it, that IS their body. You cannot separate the thoughts from the person as the person generates those thoughts. If someone genuinely thinks they are in the wrong body, for whatever reason, then that is surely something to be talking to a psychiatrist about?

Elendon · 27/12/2017 15:51

You can all have a go if you want. I'm not going to rehash the same argument over and over again.

And yet. It really is the same rehash of the argument over and over and over again. You sound like a bible basher who hates 'homosexuals'.

Elendon · 27/12/2017 15:52

That last post of mine was to Glitched

SophoclesTheFox · 27/12/2017 15:53

You don't have any theory at all on how or why it happens, glitched?

What about de-transitioners - people who firmly believe that they are "trapped in the wrong body", and then just as firmly believe that they were mistaken?

Do you think young children should be encouraged to believe that their bodies are "wrong"? Given the malleability of their minds, and their cognitive biases in favour of believing what adults tell them? Is that healthy and constructive?

Look, I'm sorry to bombard you with questions, I am not being aggressive, but I'm trying to understand the substance of your beliefs, and at the moment, it's very like someone with a religious belief saying "It.Just.Is". Which is fine for personal beliefs, but generally a terrible basis to run a society on.

Ereshkigal · 27/12/2017 15:53

So what about delusional feelings, Glitched? If you feel that the government is spying on you and persecute you and everyone you know or encounter is colluding in it (a real example I know of), is that objectively true?

CoteDAzur · 27/12/2017 15:55

"No. You are your mind. I guess we have to fundamentally disagree"

You say that as if your position is as sound & respectable as mine. It's not.

Your "mind" is generated by / inside your body. It is not an independent thing that can be somewhere else, in another body, a wrong body.

In order to disagree with what I have just said, you will need to point out where I am wrong and what proof you have of your theory.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 15:55

“ don't have a process. I accept that a tiny minority of people that look like men are in fact women and that not all trans people are lying or insane, but genuine women with the wrong body.”

Sorry-maybe process is the wrong word- what led you to accept that?

I’m not having a go- I just want to understand. And you did say you were happy to discuss! Happy to back off if you’ve changed your mind about that.

OP posts:
Elendon · 27/12/2017 15:56

Men trapped in women's bodies.

Women trapped in men's bodies.

When did this entrapment begin? And let's be careful about the answer to this please. Girl in boy's body? Boy in girl's body? The only difference then is genitals and as we all know this isn't about the genitals.

TunaSushi · 27/12/2017 15:56

You sound like a gaslighting emotional abuser of women, children and trans people to me. Nobody mentioned the bible, it was TRAs that brought that and homosexuality into a debate about "trans women are women".

Glitched · 27/12/2017 15:56

There is no quantifiable point. You're asking for something that cannot be answered.

It's their body, of course, but it doesn't match their inner self. Why not recognise that a very tiny minority of women are born with a male body and support them rather than dismissing their experience.

ellaoldie · 27/12/2017 16:00

The debate isn't whether or not trans women exist but about labels and definitions. If women cannot define themselves as a class any more they lose the ability to organise as a class. As someone said we no longer have a precise definition for woman or female. There is no precise definition that includes myself (natal woman) and a transwoman but excludes a transman and excludes my natal male brother. "Identifies as a woman" is not a definition of woman as it is circular.

Elendon · 27/12/2017 16:05

Glitched No one is dismissing anyone. What should not be dismissed is the lived experience of women and girls, especially those who live in countries where being a girl and a women means rape and a life of endless pregnancies and penury. Those women do not have the luxury of claiming to be boys or men because of biology.

The OP is not a gas lighter, TunaSushi, rather you are. You really are a gas lighter and abuser of the highest sort.

Elendon · 27/12/2017 16:06

Oh there is a quantifiable point Glitched

Gay men and having sex with transmen. Is a quantifiable point.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 16:06

@Bertrand

I am happy to discuss but some people here are being a bit full on and aggressive. Someone's comparing me to a bible basher. Not sure how. Even been called a misogynist.

I accept that some people are trans. I don't want to exclude a woman just because on the outside she looks like a man. We wouldn't exclude other women that have a disability or a health condidtion or just looked 'wrong'.

Maybe I am wrong and they are just men pretending to be women. Or maybe there are real women who are unfortunately born with a male body and want to be recognised.

Elendon · 27/12/2017 16:08

ellaoldie that makes no sense whatsoever.

It's nonsensical and therefore not circular.

SuburbanRhonda · 27/12/2017 16:11

We wouldn't exclude other women that have a disability or a health condidtion or just looked 'wrong'.

We wouldn’t exclude them because they’re women.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 27/12/2017 16:12

“Why not recognise that a very tiny minority of women are born with a male body and support them rather than dismissing their experience.”

I’m not dismissing their experience. And of course I’m supportive. But I want to try an understand what it means. What bit of the women concerned has been born in a man’s body. And I do think, that while transpeople are pushing for changes in society, I have a right to ask the questions. The personal has become the political.

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 27/12/2017 16:13

glitched, I'm wondering if you're thinking only about "old school" transsexuals - they are the population for whom the phrase and the concept "woman trapped in a man's body" was coined. Feminists have no issue with them. In fact, we generally support them in the face of the new breed of transactivist who is eroding rights and protections for all of us - women and transsexuals.

Trapped in the wrong body is not the current definition of a trans woman. Stonewall's definition of trans as follows:

"an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois"

Nothing about being trapped in the wrong body.

Elendon · 27/12/2017 16:14

I didn't accuse you of being a bible basher, Glitched. I wrote that you sounded like one.

There is a difference!

Halebeke425 · 27/12/2017 16:14

But how do the women with male bodies know they are women then? Please can someone answer this question.

I only know I am a woman because of my body. I have no 'gendered' feelings and I actually resent the idea that such a thing exists - I will not be defined by stereotypical gender roles. The Trans movement is defining women as the sum of some 'feelings' that they can't describe or nail down. How can you not see this is nonsense? Can we please just lose this whole 'gender' idea and be males and females, completely undefined by our biology apart from the roles they play in reproduction and so allowed to express ourselves however we like with no notion of 'boy things' and 'girl things'?

All I can see is the Trans movement is about putting people back in boxes and defining everyone with this made up notion of 'gender' that actually most people don't really feel at all as it's an idea imposed by current society values. And that's before we get into mental illness, autogynephilia and gender dysphoria..

TunaSushi · 27/12/2017 16:16

I didn't describe the OP as the gaslighter, that was you!

Glitched · 27/12/2017 16:17

How do I sound like a bible basher?

QuentinSummers · 27/12/2017 16:18

I am happy to discuss but some people here are being a bit full on and aggressive. Someone's comparing me to a bible basher. Not sure how. Even been called a misogynist.
Yes I think you are being piled on. Flowers for you. Thanks for contributing.

Maybe I am wrong and they are just men pretending to be women. Or maybe there are real women who are unfortunately born with a male body and want to be recognised.
I don't think trans people are pretending, I think they genuinely do feel like their body is wrong. However I don't think that means their body is actually wrong. And I don't think the rest of us should be forced into taking on a new definition of ourselves to suit their issues.
I only know I'm female because of my body. I'm pretty sure my personality and interests would be the same if I was male. The whole concept of a gender identity is anathema to me.

Glitched · 27/12/2017 16:18

Again, I'm not a trans activist. I don't support the social creep of making everything a free for all.