Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I don't know if it has the legs to sustain a third thread, but kudos to perfectly for the impeccable timing of finally answering a question on the second to last post before the thread filled up. Genius.

here is the second thread

As I am now the OP, I wonder if this gives me the right of veto over the resolutions that we apparently made in the Great Accords of 2017?

I thought the image posted, putting a 'P' after LGBT, was a bit out of the blue, without explanation.

I am aware of the PIE piggy backing on the gay liberation movement in the past - calling it 'inter-generational sex' and joining pride marches with banners, etc.

The LGBs at the time were not happy at all.

Doesn't mean the nonces have disappeared though.. they are always on the look out for new ways to legitimise themselves.

My thoughts on the image posted, was that it was either right-wing propaganda or a new offensive by the nonce brigade.

I don't get though why Perfectly is unable to tell the difference between a criminal element piggy backing the rights movement of a minority, and the criminal element actually being the same thing, the same people as those in the movement they are piggy backing..

After all you add the 'T' to the 'LGB' and can know that they are not the same thing perfectly, right? Or do you believe that since 'T' has been added, then all the 'LGBs' are 'Trans' too?

Assigned? No. Biological sex is a protected characteristic, your sex is not 'assigned'. It is observed, both at birth and puberty.

No one here does not 'support' people who have gender dysphoria, or support discrimination against them. And its not OK for them to discriminate against women.

Trans women are trans women and need their own facilities and services. If trans women insist on being called biological women, they ignore the fact there are other protected characteristics. Such as sex, sexual orientation, race and religion.

Thanks Pencils - That was v informative and no doubt reassuring that exceptions are already in place in the Equality Act to protect women. I agree the focus should be on pushing organisations to exercise the law we already have.

Guardian It was the fact I was tagged in the picture with the question 'happy that everyone is equal now?' that requires the apology.

I didn't really get what that meant

Guardian - I have vocally supported LGBT rights on here and believe in equality for everyone.

SpartonDregs used a (fake) picture which added 'pedosexual' onto LGBT, tagged me in the picture and said:

'Happy now that everyone is equal?'

Therefore insinuating that because I support LGBT equality I would be happy to support paedophilia as a sexual preference.

This is why i am awaiting an apology.

Doesn't mean the nonces have disappeared though

Quite.

LGB didn't really include children in the movement, at least until they reached adolescence because that's when sexuality develops. Add the T and suddenly the movement is there for everybody aged from about 2 years up.

It's not just LGBT now, it's LGBTQIAAWTFXYZ*+. It's a movement that wants to include everybody under the big friendly queer umbrella and is happy to add letters as needed so nobody feels left out.

If PIE managed to attach itself to the nascent gay rights movement of the 70's, and if those men haven't gone away and are still seeking to normalise paedophilia (which they are), how much easier is it for them now, given the above?

AFAIK the P image posted earlier started as a 4chan prank (but really perfectly you're in no position to be outraged about anybody posting fake news after the tweet you posted in thread 1). Nevertheless it has been seen on the timeline of more than one 'virtuous paedophile'. The accounts are reported when found and so far have been deleted. It's also not the first time I've seen the P added in this way.

so well put pencilsinspace . Gender non-conformity sounds like it would be a good option for some people at least. Maybe not the AGPs though

Datun my suggestion would be trans women are given an enhanced DBS / CRB check as part of the GRC process and if anything shows up they should be banned from using female facilities or having access to vulnerable women.

Except a fetish isn't illegal and won't show up on a DBS.

I agree that self ID shouldn't happen as a process. And that under the EA, it's here anyway.

The really important part is the exemptions. And knowing how and when to invoke them.

So a woman who is uncomfortable with a cross dressing fetishist giving it large and causing discomfort in a changing rooms at Marks & Spencer's can slap a leaflet on the counter explaining the exemptions and asking staff to invoke them.

And the staff realise they can, and will, purely on that basis.

Therefore insinuating that because I support LGBT equality I would be happy to support paedophilia as a sexual preference.

Or it could be a shock tactic using the slippery slope argument?

ie- if you believe/argue that 'equality = equal treatment' (rather than equality = equal freedom from disadvantage), then where do you draw the line? If the Ts are able to claim to be identical to LGBs and women, then surely nonces can use the same reasoning, piggy-backing on LGB or other rights?

The rights of trans and gender non-conforming people may overlap with LGB or women's rights in some ways, but they are not the same and they don't really belong squarely in either movement.

The really important part is the exemptions. And knowing how and when to invoke them.

Datun I completely agree, and also that women know these laws actually exist. It seems so many are fearful the law will not protect them.

Guardian I am sure it was a shock tactic using a slippery slope argument! But it was actually nothing to do with trans people as it's about sexual preference so irrelevant to the discussion as well as being very offensive.

Anyway I was delighted with the outcome of Thread #2 - I felt we had reached a point where pro trans feminists could back the feminist movement without throwing their transgender friends under a bus.
Wish we could have left it at that.
Doesn't look like I'll be getting that apology...!

perfectly The reason that women are fearful that the law won't protect them is because ALL of the pressure groups are actively promoting ignorance of the law. ALL the new guidelines and every one of the training packs that I have seen makes NO reference to the exemptions and they ALL without exception, promote the 'if women don't take self ID people into sex segregated spaces then the women are transphobic and must be moved / punished.
That is why there is such a backlash - these organisations are only interested in promoting their self ID rights and have zero interest in the welfare / safety of women or children.

I wonder if posters can spot a textbook case of this:?

Inevitable switch and bait.

"I felt we had reached a point where pro trans feminists could back the feminist movement without throwing their transgender friends under a bus.

Wish we could have left it at that."

Whereas I am happy about this thread #3 because now you have explicitly stated:

"The really important part is the exemptions. And knowing how and when to invoke them.

Datun I completely agree, and also that women know these laws actually exist. It seems so many are fearful the law will not protect them."

I didn't realise you were so strong in your opposition to the TRAs efforts to erode those exemptions and their vociferous and sometimes violent efforts to prevent discussions around them until you said that.

Guardian if you look at the last thread, I pointed out that not all trans people support the TRAs. Just like not all Muslims support Isis

I am pro trans but that does not mean pro TRA and I think there is a lot of confusion on here between the two.

It seems so many are fearful the law will not protect them

Because at the moment it doesn't. The fear is legitimate.

Organisations don't on the whole go trawling through the actual legislation to find out what they are supposed to be doing. Legislation is not reader-friendly and also cannot be properly understood without considering case law. Miss something, fail to follow sub-para b(ii) where it sends you back to another schedule, section and para UNLESS sub-para f (iv) applies (but see also ECHR J Bloggs vs. Herts County Council 2011) and you can land in court (all details here made up by the way but you get the picture).

So instead organisations rely on guidance. This is written sometimes by the government and sometimes by other organisations that interpret the law into human-friendly language and apply it to specific situations. Increasingly, guidance around trans equality is written by campaigning groups such as GIRES and Mermaids. They don't tell orgs about those exceptions. Instead they tell them trans people must be treated as their preferred gender for all purposes or they might kill themselves and no org wants that.

Most orgs (businesses, charities, govt. departments etc.) are not deeply invested in this issue. This is all just red tape they have to comply with before they get on with whatever their purpose is. So they just pick some off the shelf guidance that seems to be widely endorsed by other respectable organisations, maybe tweak the wording a bit for brand and stick their logo on it and call it done.

Guidance is not the law itself and can be legally challenged. It's an incredibly risky thing to do in the current climate though and would take a huge amount of money and effort. It also involves knowing that the guidance has misinterpreted the law in the first place.

Guardian if you look at the last thread, I pointed out that not all trans people support the TRAs. Just like not all Muslims support Isis

I am pro trans but that does not mean pro TRA and I think there is a lot of confusion on here between the two.

I dunno perfectly I think the phrase "I support the rights of transsexuals to live in peace, but my problem is with TRAs" or thereabouts is pretty common on the FWR board - years of transactivists has meant that it is as common as NAMALT, I don't see why this thread would be any exception.

My observation is that you have shifted position a bit, or perhaps you have clarified your position, perhaps through being less combative/mudslinging?

Anyway, if you do mean as you said, agreeing with Datun above, then you agree with the general MN FWR consensus - so I don't know why you were so offended about the 'letter to the woman who called me a terf'....

Guardian because that letter to the woman who called me a terf was bloody ridiculous, full of scaremongering, mean spirited and made out trans people were bad men in dresses trying to violate women.

Guidance is not the law itself and can be legally challenged. It's an incredibly risky thing to do in the current climate though and would take a huge amount of money and effort. It also involves knowing that the guidance has misinterpreted the law in the first place.

Fantastic summary of the issue pencils

perfectly at the end of thread 2 you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about. You proposed:

1. Leave the GRA well alone
2. Self ID would work on a honour system controlled by women

Clearly this is bobbins because self-ID is the change that is proposed to the GRA. Do you now understand this?

I know you are seeking compromise, how are your suggestions going down with the transactivists?

Well I suppose one person's bloody ridiculous, full of scaremongering, mean spirited and made out trans people were bad men in dresses trying to violate women is another person's necessary articulation of how things will end up if TRAs successfully erode the category of woman as meaning biological female requiring protections and specific rights in law.

Love that sea lion meme Xenophile

I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I came on here after that 'letter to the woman who called me a terf' thread as I care about both women's rights and trans rights. I was aware the Self ID proposal was causing a big furore on here, everyone was going around peak transing and calling themselves Spartacus, I wanted to find out what was going on so I came on the feminist board to get some insight. And now I know.