Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Queen considering the very small number of trans women in the world compared to the number of women it's impossible to do a comparison. Violence against either is abhorrent and I would hope to live in a society that offered the same protection to trans women as all women.

So the answer is no - transwomen are not more oppressed than women. Why make up such outlandish statements when you couldn't back it up?

Instead of arguing, I invite you all to have a drink with me in the Marlborough in Brighton. It used to be a women’s bar and now it is more split between trans, lesbians a few straight men and a few straight women. And do you know what? Nobody feels threatened. Nobody feels colonised. Nobody throws their toys out the pram because they don’t want to be surrounded by anybody a bit different from them. We all happily share the gender neutral toilets, have a drink together and get along just fine. That is the kind of world I want my daughter to grow up in and the kind of feminist I hope she will become.

That is absolutely the world I wish my daughter to grow up in. If everyone is treated equally and there were no discrimination or abuse then there is no need for segregation or labels. (Imagine all the people...)

Sadly things are not equal and people are not treated equally in the rest of the world outside the Marlborough bubble. So we still need to recognise why the discrepancies happen and put labels on them in order to deal with the source of the problem.

jelly absolutely and let's work together and fight the real problem which is male violence rather than throw our transgender friends under a bus.

I think such a visceral response to the suggestion that the protections you want are already in place under "gender reassignment" protected characteristic shows that the claim that many posters make about no transphobia here are entirely false.

Do you really think this goady fuckery is helpful to your cause? Telling women they can be categorised as "trans" because they are GNC? It isn't. It just shows up the misogyny and the absurdity of your ideology.

It would be like saying, right there are no possessions anymore (to borrow some more from JL); without laying the groundwork for that and having buy in from everyone involved what do you imagine would happen?

I don't think it would be pretty.

Yes, I too want to live in Perfectly's world where no man is ever the reason women would like an occasional man-free space.

Mind you, even then, in a world where every man can be trusted, I'd still like a nice piss-free loo seat.

How about you stop throwing women under the bus, perfectly? It's not just an issue of safety. Respect other women's boundaries.

Jelly absolutely and let's work together and fight the real problem which is male violence rather than throw our transgender friends under a bus.

Yes! Males should be able to wear whatever they like and identify however they wish without getting abuse for it in their own sex areas.

Lancelottie I agree! Although it's women that hover that are the worst for splashing the seat.

Yes! Males should be able to wear whatever they like and identify however they wish without getting abuse for it in their own sex areas.

This, glad perfectly also agrees.

Still also interested in thoughts on sports and data.......

It's not a bloody hierarchy of oppression!

If TIMs face oppression, that should be tackled. Men's spaces should be made safer for them. Men should give up some of their domination in careers and institutions by affirmative action programmes for TIMs.

Women have struggled for years to try to make public life safe to participate in and to win affirmative action programmes to redress male domination of careers and institutions. We need those spaces and those programmes.

The answer is not for TIMs to squat like cuckoos in nests women have laboured for centuries to create for themselves.

The answer is for TIMs to campaign for men to make room for them.

Honestly? Having watched perfectly and debbie pretending to be "reasonable" on these threads for weeks now, I notice that every single time their "reasonable" suggestions are to take space and opportunities away from women and never, ever, ever men. And these two are purporting to be the "reasonable" side of transactivism?!

I'm honestly now tending towards the camp others have posited on here. No GRCs for anybody other than post-SRS transsexuals - the people gender critical feminists have accepted and supported for decades. The rest of the TRAs can just do one. They really can.

Squat like cuckoos is a good phrase, LangCleg.

I think a certain women's officer is a prominent example. 'Me! Feed me! All for me! See, biggest beak in the nest!'

Datun just curious, did you support Donald Trump's ban on Muslims entering the US?

Dear me, perfectly your slip is really showing now.

Not sure if you truly believe that men who identify as women are oppressed, or whether you are just drunk on the Kool-Aid.

Firstly, I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word oppression. An oppressed group has to provide some kind of material gain for their oppressors. People aren’t oppressed willy nilly, for no reason.

Women’s oppression is based on their biology. On their sexual, emotional and reproductive labour.

Again your logic is completely flawed. If transitioning eliminated oppression, you are implying that all women need to do is identify as men. And simply identify out of their oppression!

Which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t work.

Like the transman in the taxi who was raped but sobbingly told the police, but I kept telling him I was a man. Likewise the transman in the hostel. Who thought her male identification would stop her from being raped. She was wrong.

The word you are looking for is discrimination.

Trans people may be discriminated against on the basis of their nonconformity. Which is entirely wrong.

Transmen are attacked because they are women.

Transwomen are attacked because of men’s homophobia.

Statistically, if a regular man transitions to become a woman, he actually reduces his chance of being killed. (Most transwomen who are killed are prostitutes in the South American countries.)

Continuing to exclude males from women’s spaces is not oppression of those males!

Several transsexuals who post on here are aghast at the push to colonise women’s spaces. It is actually making attitudes towards them worse.

Why don’t you listen to them, if you’re not going to listen to us?

I'd love a drink at the Marlborough-haven't been there for ages. And perfectly's description sounds fun. I'd be a bit sad that what was a "woman's bar" has become a "bar" though......Unaccompanied straight men?? Whatever next!

Hey ho. I shall now poke my own wallowing cuckoos out of their nests and go and do something involving Christmassy peace and goodwill to all men, women and guinea pigs.

WTAF I don't think you understand we have a lot of common ground. We are both women (I assume?!) both feminists. Believe easy access to hormone blockers is dangerous, I personally detest the term 'cisgender' and would never use it. I am not claiming that every proposal put forward for trans equality is not flawed in some way and sports is a grey area. Let's not get this mixed up with 'trans people are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me'

"Let's not get this mixed up with 'trans people are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me'"

No. Let's not. Who has said that-or anything like that on this thread?

No GRCs for anybody other than post-SRS transsexuals.

But what use is a GRC anyway? It doesn't stop discrimination or abuse.

Being a female is a protected characteristic and yet discrimination and abuse still happens despite birth certs stating female.

Pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics but that doesn't stop 1 in 7 HR manager openly stating that they would not employ someone they thought would go on to have a baby (can't find the recent survey right now but this one from 2014 suggested 2 in 5 managers: www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2015/jul/27/maternity-leave-discrimination-pregnant-then-screwed-stories)

54,000 women a year face discrimination after having a baby:www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2015/jul/27/maternity-leave-discrimination-pregnant-then-screwed-stories

In what way are sports a grey area perfectly?

Betrand the offer is there! Let's do it wouldn't it be a happy ending if all of us on this thread ended up going for a drink together and having a laugh.

Strawman again! No-one on this thread has said anywhere "trans people are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me."

Some of us have said "some bad men are pretending to be trans in order to pursue their interest in perpetrating violent and sexual crimes" - e.g. the 40 or so sex offenders suddenly wanting to transition in UK prisons - so we want to maintain gate-keeping to keep them out of women's prisons. We also want to keep out the piss-takers like Travis of the top-shop incident - people who are getting a sexual kick out of putting on "woman face" at the expense of intimidating teenage girls. But we don't (repeat ad infinitum) have anything against genuinely trans people (many of whom also quite like the current set up with its protections against sexual predators and piss-takers).

Before I go, though, here's a quote from something I'm reading for work. It's a translation from Galen, born AD129:
"Mortality, and the procreation it necessitates, explains why there are less-perfect female animals as well as the perfect males. It would be a grave error, impious even, to think that the demiurge [god] would make half of all humanity imperfect, and, as it were, mutilated, unless there was to be some great advantage in such a mutilation'.

I do get the feeling that current TRA thinking hasn't moved on much from two millennia ago.

Let's not get this mixed up with 'trans people are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me'

Do you really, really think, after having read all the responses, that anyone thinks 'trans people are bad'?

How about 'people pretending to be trans are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me'

perfectly would you agree with the above? (It's a yes/no response by the way.)