Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

you all wonder why its no debate.

No, we don't wonder at all. We know why we're not allowed to discuss this, it's because as soon as a discussion is had, facts happen, and, as soon as facts happen, the TRA arguments disappear like candyfloss in the rain.

Just wanted to pop in and point out the hypocrisy and irony of kicking up a fuss about accidental misspelling of a Mumsnet username but there is a persistent refusal on here to respect the preferred pronouns of transgender individuals.

No one's making a fuss except you. Merely pointing out that someone had consistently misspelled a name in a couple of different ways isn't making a fuss. And if you bothered to read anyone's posts, you'd be fully aware that when speaking to a trans person, we would all use whatever pronouns they wanted because we're all well socialised little women who know what antagonising men leads to.

Instead of constantly accusing the kettle of being black just bloody put it on and have a cup of tea with your fellow human being who happen to be transgender. You might surprise yourself.

I've had many a cup of tea with transgender friends. One in particular told me he was close to the final op to make himself a laydie [as he pronounced it]. I said 'yes, but without all the shit that goes with it' and he nodded and said 'yes, without all the shit'. Because genuine trans people who have been through therapy, and whatever else to transition themselves, still know they are biologically what they were born as. You seem to think we all exist in a TERF bubble and you are the Woke one. You could not be further from the truth.

It seems this blatant lack of respect is intentional, purely to provoke a reaction from a TRA you can say ‘told you so! They called me a TERF!’ So childish.

This is such an odd sentence, I can’t get my head round it. Calling a lack of respect blatant implies it’s a conscious decision. Respect for somebody isn’t something you decide to have. It’s involuntary.

It’s also a little risable thinking that one has to go out of one’s way to ‘provoke’ a transactivist.

There seems to be bit of a theme about trying to provoke. For dubious, gotcha reasons.

Women’s argument over this issue is logical, rational, evidence-based and backed up by analysis and statistics. No need for tricks. Hence the lack of public debate from transactivists. Their argument is emotive, pushy and relies on strategy to shut people down. When this fails, they block, or leave.

‘Blocking’ people for dissent is so prevalent, many women are blocked without ever engaging with the person, purely on the basis of liking a gender critical article.

The ‘terfblocker’ lists that circulate means you can block someone you have never encountered, before they even open their mouth. Just click on the list.

Childishness is certainly prevalent, but it’s not a word that generally goes with feminist.

This is a brilliant thread.

I was aware of the issues around men who claim that they identify as women but I certainly didn't know about the issues around children and the push to trans them. And it is utterly horrifying. It demonstrates to me just how damaging the whole first cornerstone lie of trans ideology is. If you do actually believe the first lie then you have to keep believing all the other lies, no matter what the cost is to children.

I don't believe the first lie. I don't believe anyone can change sex.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to lay it all out.

To all the regs on here, Your motives on here seem so transparent. You are desperate to prove the trans are ‘baddies’ out to oppress women. You trawl Twitter and Reddit seeking out any offensive Tweet from a TRA to validate your opinion. Speakers corner was a joy as it affirmed that if you provoke and antagonise people enough they will fight back. You have picked your enemy and refuse to compromise on any aspect of their existence, even their pronouns.

It must be so frustrating that there are literally only two TRAs out there who are trying to access women’s spaces. Danielle Muscato and that other one with the tattoos and dress you keep posting about, so you are desperately trying to seek out more. You want them to gain momentum to prove your point that they are dangerous.

It’s all about winning a war and you are completely losing sight of the real goal which is to protect women. I believe deep down you would love for a TRA to assault a women in a safe female space so then the mainstream media would take note, everyone would ‘peak trans’ and you would win.

My position is different. Let’s not put women at risk by provoking, antagonising and pushing for a reaction. You will achieve a lot more being respectful and open to compromise. I’ve said all this before but there’s a determination on here to make everything an angry battle.

irony of kicking up a fuss about accidental misspelling of a Mumsnet username

Making a fuss would have involved Datun derailing the discussion with accusations of literal violence. Demands that we spell her name correctly. She didn't bring this up and doesn't care.

Sophocles I fail to see how anyone could read your post with the misspelling observation at the end and choose to focus on the misspelling bit. Unless they didn't know how to confront the meat of your argument. Thanks for sharing your experiences so publicly. I had no idea that it could be so bad.

Women’s argument over this issue is logical, rational, evidence-based and backed up by analysis and statistics. No need for tricks. Hence the lack of public debate from transactivists.

YES! Absolutely. If TRA's showed us evidence-based analysis we could discuss it. If the evidence, analysis and statistics were better than ours, we'd accept them. Of course.

Let’s not put women at risk by provoking, antagonising and pushing for a reaction. You will achieve a lot more being respectful and open to compromise. I’ve said all this before but there’s a determination on here to make everything an angry battle.

How is there compromise being considered for women when you have men in boxing rings actually beating up women boxers? Where is the compromise there exactly?

have a cup of tea with your fellow human being who happen to be transgender. You might surprise yourself

Actually, it was a transsexual friend of mine who alerted me to what is going on with current transactivism and how dangerous it is. She'd been trying to tell me for a while but - to my shame - I'd not taken that much notice and put her warnings down to some silly campus politics that would blow itself out.

Since 2010, most of my awareness and political activity had been taken up with austerity and cuts to public services. I was busy with other stuff that was adversely affecting women.

And a few months ago, she said FFS, Lang, PAY ATTENTION.

So I did. I read and read and read. I read 4th Wave Now and Transgender Trend. I also read everything put out by Mermaids and Gires. I read the government report on GRA reform, including all the evidence that didn't go into it. I spent hours on Twitter going through radfem accounts and prominent TRA accounts. I read all the studies that TRAs and radfems use in their arguments. I did my research.

So, perfectly, the reason I am here disagreeing with you is because I did sit down for a cup of tea with a trans person. And I did surprise myself. Just not in the way you assume I would have.

Speakers corner was a joy

I think this says it all about you. You think it is joyful for a woman to be beaten up for daring to have an opinion.

There can be no compromise when it comes to the erosion of women's rights.

Speakers corner was a joy as it affirmed that if you provoke and antagonise people enough they will fight back.

What?? Have a think about what you just said perfectly. Fighting back metaphorically is fine. These were young men who physically attacked an older woman. Is that really a joy? Really?

Who held the power in that situation? Who was actually fighting back? I don't recognise the narrative of TRAs as underdogs.

Thought I would attach this Grayson Perry short. I think it shows how a crossdresser progresses to dress up to full time.
Geoff started with just clothes in private but now has a whole club of "girls" to go out with. Most of these type of guys will progress and see themselves as transgender and, therefore, as much as a woman as you and me AND we will have to accept that legally.
We should stand together to say "play dress up if you want, but NO you are not real women.
Https:youtu.be/s2lh3pazKsM
I know they identify as CDers now but some of them will transition, either full or part time.

The last couple of pages of this thread are just

datun I wouldn't be confused, it is class of projection and accusing us of what they are trying to do themselves

perfectly Danielle is just the perfect example due to their penchant for saying things like "suck my ladydick". But there are plenty of others

Last night I was watching a Twitter spat between Ada Wells and Magdalen Berns. Ada calls women cunt scum.
This morning it's evolved into Ada suggesting all children should take blockers and that children are abused because they don't get told enough about how to say no.
Vile person.

mobile.twitter.com/DykePRK/status/944365296835493889

mobile.twitter.com/DykePRK/status/944373411391918081

Urgh

perfectly
It’s all about winning a war

It certainly is. Not one that women started.
Pity you and the other trans activists wont fight this hard to make the mens spaces all gender and keep womens spaces and jobs just for women.
We'd support that.

This is a really interesting article from a paediatrician in the US.

Also contains links to other gender-critical medical groups in the US. First Do No Harm

It references something I hadn't thought of before.

If we really are born with an innate gender identity, then you would absolutely expect identical twins to have the same gender identity.

They share the same DNA and are exposed to the same hormones in the womb.

So if one twin identifies as transgender, then the other twin must also be transgender, right? Wrong. The vast majority of identical twins who identify as transgender have a twin who does not identify as transgender.

Source in the first article I linked to.

Can somebody tell me if I misread this or not? Did perfectly really just say that it was a joy that the woman at Speakers Corner was hit?

Ada Wells has a tweet thread posting excerpts from Ada's medical file. Ada thinks it's evidence of maltreatment by the NHS but you can see that practitioners are trying to help but seriously unable to deal with Ada's various delusions that there is some kind of medical and institutional conspiracy against Ada.

If this was a person with any other medical presentation than trans, Ada would either have been sectioned or discharged from service by now.

I'd like to be able to summon up some human sympathy for Ada. But it's so clear that Ada is a danger to themselves and others and that the medical profession is entirely unable to manage Ada safely due to the current political environment, I'm afraid I can't muster any human sympathy whatsoever.

Can somebody tell me if I misread this or not? Did perfectly really just say that it was a joy that the woman at Speakers Corner was hit?

No. Perfectly is suggesting that we were overjoyed Maria was stalked and assaulted by TRAs in the Speakers Corner incident. Perfectly thinks that we are happy about this because it enables us to make a martyr of Maria in our bigoted campaign against harmless male stalkers and assaulters.

To be fair to perfectly I think what she meant is we ("TERFs") think it's a joy a sixty year old woman got assaulted by some trans women, because we feel it proves our position. She wasnt saying she found it a joy.
Of course this implies normal people wouldn't at all be shocked about a woman being assaulted for daring to go to a political debate. It's all manufactured outrage

X-post lang
This thread is fast moving

Perfectly.

What would "surprise" me if I had a cup of tea with a transwoman?

Nailed it, lang.