Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

I don't know why I am still shocked by some peoples views on 'trans kids'..but I am. I find it absolutely astounding that anyone could look at the near 100% persistance rate when kids are put on blockers, look at the 80-95% desistance rate if they are not..and think everything is fine!?

It's so disingenuous, isn't it?

NHS GIDS for minors is still operating largely on watchful waiting and exploratory therapy before medical intervention. The TRA lobby wants it to shift to immediate affirmation and medicalisation.

Debbie is using the current watchful waiting protocols to convince you that all is hunky dory and no child is being given unnecessary interventions while simultaneously being completely aware that TRA orgs are lobbying for those protocols to be changed.

(Sorry: forgot to say - the 100% persistence rate is true for both NHS watchful waiting and USA/Canada affirmation protocols. Puberty blockers are iatrogenic. They cause persistence.)

Batshite
I think many people are 'ignorant' of the impact on children - they have no knowledge of the statistics and they just accept what they are told by the "experts".
OR they are political activists with little or no empathy for children of any age. They simply see them as 'collateral' in their determination to have their lifestyle choices validated and celebrated by the rest of society. interest. Children are to be groomed and manipulated to serve the interests and wishes of a small group of mainly older males.
It is indefensible what is happening to young people at the moment but until our politicians wake up and actually look at what is happening, this won't change. Not until the class actions begin and government agencies, political groups and those who have failed to protect children start being hit with lawsuits.

The trans ideology rejects medical ethics.

Rejection of ethics. Think about what that means.

Which makes you wonder just how far the rejection of ethics goes and how deep.

Like all military tactics, evolution occurs.

On the military theme, it's about winning, isn't it? Getting their way. Having everyone bow to their illogical whim. But so clever to hide under the guise of an oppressed minority, rather Trojan horse. And using children as cannon fodder.

I actually think many trans adults know they knew as little children and suffered in silence in the closet for feat of family and social rejection.They know it never went away and only finally transitioning when life became intolerable otherwise

Many TRAs haven't transitioned though. Many call themselves 'non-binary' or queer or trans and call those who have transitioned truscum. But at the same time they are quite happy to usher small children on big pharma journeys and then claim them as a number in their campaign.

Actually what someone said a page or 2 ago about men creating people who will forever have prepubescent genitals is very disturbing and not something I’d really thought of before

@RedToothBrush

Wow - rejection of ethics. Of course - lightbulb moment...

That is why I get so outraged. After decades of working with children and adolescents in and out of schools with a focus on safeguarding, it is only occasionally that I came across those seeking to use children for their own ends. A small number of paedophiles, the occasional uncaring adult not fit to be in a school but generally working as part of ethical communities of adults and parents all seeking the best for children.

And now - a cult which is determinedly and without any moral compass exploiting these communities for their own ends - without ethics.

That is it.

Actually what someone said a page or 2 ago about men creating people who will forever have prepubescent genitals is very disturbing and not something I’d really thought of before

This started to concern me a few weeks back now and I cannot help thinking there is something very very sinister going on. Obviously NAMALT and such, butcreating 'legal children' basically..well..

I actually think many trans adults know they knew as little children and suffered in silence in the closet for feat of family and social rejection.They know it never went away and only finally transitioning when life became intolerable otherwise

Considering tims fall into two categories, gay and augophililes I think there's probably some truth in this but I don't think it's what we're led to believe. I've read hundreds of accounts from tims describing how they would steal their sisters/ mothers clothes as young boys. So yes, they probably knew something wasn't right. And by their own admission the motivation was sexual, even at a very young age.

SophoclesTheFox

^How dare you?

How bloody dare you?

You don't have the first idea what you're talking about. If they're so harmless, these drugs, then how about you get them injected in your arse every month like I had to, and then you come back here and tell me how easy peasy lemon squeezy it all is.

Fuck's sake. I've read some ignorant bilge on here in my time, but that really makes me see red. I would never give these drugs to a child. Never.^

With all due respect but you do not know jack shit about my or my loved ones experience with GnRH drugs or the various reasons for taking them, be it trans, endometriosis or IVF All of which are relevant in my family and circle of friends, so whilst i am sorry you had a bad experience with them you do not have the right to launch such an attack on me.

Considering tims fall into two categories, gay and augophililes

I actually think that is overly simplistic ...

Debbie you do a lot of accusing and attacking yourself.

I agree with you, BlindYeo.
For many of the Trans identified males it is the ultimate abusive male dominance display and entirely about obedience.

Spartacus it is a fact universally acknowledged that TRAs are the only people who are allowed to attack or accuse anyone of anything.

With all due respect but you do not know jack shit about my or my loved ones experience with GnRH drugs or the various reasons for taking them, be it trans, endometriosis or IVF All of which are relevant in my family and circle of friends, so whilst i am sorry you had a bad experience with them you do not have the right to launch such an attack on me.

Please tell me you are not trying to use hormone therapy for IVF, Endo, etc as an excuse for using it on children!

Actually Debbie6666 we know a lot about you from the way you have behaved on these threads. It has been very rvealing.

No, Debbie, no.

Enough now.

My "how bloody dare you" was directed to your assertion that "cis" people struggle with side effects of GnRH treatments because it induces a state akin to gender dysphoria.

your posts yesterday -

In both genders the total suppression of sex hormones causes the psychological side effects that are akin to gender dysphoria.

In trans people suppressing the mismatch hormones causes a relief in gender dysphoria. This is reported in trans women who only take anti androgen for instance and was in the past (still is sometimes) used a a diagnostic tool for gender dysphoria.

Unfortunately all this is evidence pointing to hardwired sex differences in brains and that trans people have similarities and hormone receptors inline with their identified sex. That kind of speak is a big no no in these parts and not studied enough.

I'm saying it possibly causes a type of gender dysphoria in cisgender people. The side effects (which are measured on cisgender people) are a laundry list of the symptoms of gender dysphoria in trans people.

The side effects are those experienced by ciggender people having their hormone systems shut down. Funnily enough the list of side effects of all these drugs when used for their licenced purpose of shutting down sex hormones reads like a laundry list of gender dysphoria symptoms. Symptoms that go away in transpeople who are also on a regime of hormones that aligns with their identity

You posted all of the above. The message you're promoting is "GnRH drugs have different effects on trans and "cis" people because ladybrain is real". That's dangerous nonsense. Firstly, it's dangerous nonsense to peddle to parents with trans children, given the likelihood that posters above highlight about the possibility (the HIGH possibility) that the drugs are iatrogenic in these circumstances. This needs to be investigated, not taken on faith. Secondly, it's dangerous, disrespectful nonsense to suggest that women who've taken these drugs struggle with them psychologically. Do you know how many times I was told my crippling endometriosis was in my head?

It wasn't in my head, it was all over my fucking peritoneum and pelvic organs. The GnRH drugs caused crippling, physical, lasting side effects. There are class action suits pending against the makers of lupron.

So don't play the victim with me. It won't wash. You don't even have the basic respect to engage with Datun by getting her name right.

You don't even have the basic respect to engage with Datun by getting her name right.

I chalked that one up as a rather ineffective attempt to needle me.

You don't even have the basic respect to engage with Datun by getting her name right.

I chalked that one up as a rather ineffective attempt to needle me

Indeed. But clocked by many of us, I'm sure.

On the military theme, it's about winning, isn't it? Getting their way. Having everyone bow to their illogical whim. But so clever to hide under the guise of an oppressed minority, rather Trojan horse. And using children as cannon fodder.

What strikes me is an evolution has happened. To what ends or for what purpose it's not entirely clear to me.

I see parallels with how war has evolved in the past or how terrorist tactics have changed. As the forces working against them have been able to develop strategies to stop certain threats those who carry them out find new ways to exploit and inflict harm on others. They are always one step ahead in doing so and society that seeks to stop it, is always one step behind.

Is it a war on women or a war on children or a war on homosexuality? Or indeed an alliance between all three, in the same way that the Christian right, the ultra capitalists and white supremacists have formed one behind Trump in the US.

Either way it's very much an assault on the foundations of liberal values. Challenging ethics in this way is dangerous as it threatens the existence of ethics completely. And of course established human rights by consequence.

The fact there is a manifesto that explicitly states that it rejects medical ethics and scrutiny should set off alarm bells. ANY group that does this is dangerous and should concern you. The fact it's supposedly a rights issue does very much make it a Trojan horse. It's a recognition that society places value on ethics and rights and it can not assault them head on.

It is impossible to be a genuine rights issue without concern for ethical principles or any thought for safe guarding. Anything that attempts to discourage debate and scrutiny is not a true rights issue. Anything that favours secrecy over transparency in democratic society should be looked upon with real suspicion.

Everything here screams red flag. The actual subject at hand is in many respects irrelevant and the principles driving it are dubious.

And yes it's about the principle of 'winning' at whatever cost with no regard to collateral damage because the leaders are single minded and selfish because they believe they won't be the one on the front lines of battle. Like all military leaders.

Apologies Datun if I mistyped your name it wasn't intentional.

Well, quite, datun.

Doesn't say much of the quality of debate on Debbie's part, and I presumed you were just ignoring it because it's a bit pathetic.

I also usually prefer to rise above the jibes, but I can't let the stuff about side effects for GnRH agonists being bad because of ladybrain go, though. Fuck that. That sets me off because of all the crap that I've had to deal with because of female biology, and it all gets highjacked to transactivism. I've had a hysterectomy, which gets appropriated into the "is a woman without a uterus still a woman, eh?? What about that??". I'm on HRT, which gets appropriated when trans people take hormones, and they refer to starting "HRT". It's not. You're having hormone therapy, sure, but there's no "R" in it - it's not replacing anything.

And then Debbie's latest suggestion just got right up my nose, and I bit.

Debbie6666

Apology accepted.

SophoclesTheFox

Indeed. If suppression of hormones creates gender dysphoria, what happens to menopausal women?

So you now own all those issue's and get to decide who talks about them. Somebody else's emergency bowel resection due to endometriosis that nearly killed them is not relevant, because all talk of lady brain is forbidden by you.

So why don't trans people suffer the mental side effects of GnRh?

Menopausal women still have a fairly high oestrogen compared to men or someone on gnrh