Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Debbie6666

Oh good, a totally-not-far fetched-or-completely-impossible scenario!

You know what, if I were to magically wake up in a male body tomorrow, then yeah, I'd be a man. I'd be in an adult human male body. Because your personality, appearance and mannerisms have absolutely nothing to do with your biological sex.

Frankly, I would probably be a bit freaked out, but that would be more due to the fact that I have just magically woken up in another body, something which hitherto had been completely and totally impossible

Blue light has a distinctly different wave length from yellow light. This has been scientifically observed and recorded. No, you don't get the poetic "essence" of blue from light wavelength. But in order to be blue, a light has to have a specific wavelength. My DH is red-green colorblind. He doesn't insist that red delicious apples are brown and insists that everyone else call them brown just because that's how his brain perceives red. He doesn't insist that red=brown and that anyone who doesn't agree is hateful.

What does my sexuality have to with gender identity?

More logical falsies.

Big pharma, yeah because the 3 year old who says mommy i'm not a boy i'm a girl is under so much pharmaceutical influence. Must be the internet they are using too i suppose

Say if by magic you woke up tomorrow with a male body but still your same brain.
I would be a man. Because sex is physical not mental. I might behave differently to your stereotypical man due to socialization but as "man" is a wide category encompassing nearly all behaviours and interests I doubt I would be remarkable.

I think any changes in my sexuality would be about as relevant to this debate as my current sexuality.

But as magic doesn't exist this is all bollocks.

Children who transition early don't actually change sex you know.

Hmmmmmm, this is another reason I wonder if certain groups are super keen to trans children - so that people can no longer use the 'you were socialised as male' as an argument as to why transwomen are not actual women.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but there is a word for men who are obsessed with children's developing bodies and who spend hours talking to them on line.

I think we have to acknowledge the role of heterosexual adult men who are pushing for the creation of legal adults with the bodies and genitals of pre-pubescents.

It would be the puberty blockers from 9 to 16 and then lifetime hormone pathway they'd probably be interested in, Debbie. Don't be obtuse.

More logical falsies

Like magically waking up as a man tomorrow?

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but there is a word for men who are obsessed with children's developing bodies and who spend hours talking to them on line.

To be honest I think we all ought to be a bit more cynical in that area.

I find this thread utterly depressing (despite all the brilliant efforts of so many posters to highlight all the inconsistencies of this cult) But every time I see Debbie6666 saying things like:
They know that there are other children now who are going through what they did and don't want to see them going through a lifetime of it, but rather give them a voice and support they need I am aghast at the profound arrogance and deep ignorance about children that this displays.
Decades of child protection disasters where children have been groomed and harmed by adults have resulted in this country having very rigorous safeguarding procedures. Children are not here to validate our adult decisions and lifestyles.
Yet a few adults on here and a frightening cohort of adults representing GIRES, Mermaids and other pressure groups are actively promoting the idea that children below the age of consent should be given Lupron and other off label drugs to halt puberty. The limited studies on these drugs show some serious side effects and they are untested for this purpose. Yet they lie about the long term effects and tell adults that any impact will be reversible.
They tell all adults in schools to keep a child's disclosure about being 'transgender' confidential - despite the fact that every bloody school tells adults NEVER to maintain confidentiality about pastoral issues but always to share information with the appropriate safeguarding / pastoral officer.
We know children and teenagers are groomed online and persuaded into inappropriate sexual relationships, dangerous eating disorders, and radicalised by terrorist organisations. We support parents in the difficult task of saying 'no' to their vulnerable teenagers who want to engage in these dangerous self harming activities.
Yet despite all this, transgender pressure groups are being allowed to drive a coach and horses through all our collective knowledge about young people and are seriously arguing with parents that THEY are the ones acting in a child's best interests. They know best. That children are capable of making life changing decisions about taking harmful drugs pre puberty - despite every bit of evidence that children can't anticipate the long term results - that's why we have such complex discussions about a child being 'Gillick' or Fraser guidelines competent.

The arrogance and total disregard for children and families is appalling and the desperation to use children in this way to further their own political ends is a disgrace.

Debbie6666

Yep, thats what i said and why they have different treatment protocols, you completely missed my point.

What was your point, then? And did you understand mine.

Most GNC kids who express a desire to change sex desist in adulthood. They no longer want to transition to the opposite sex.

We give GNC children expressing a desire to change sex puberty blockers in early adolescence. The vast majority of these children given puberty blockers go on to transition.

We have no good studies on the long-term effects of these medications on children. We do have indications that puberty blockers can cause bad side effects years down the road.

Do you see no problems with any of that?

Big pharma, yeah because the 3 year old who says mommy i'm not a boy i'm a girl is under so much pharmaceutical influence. Must be the internet they are using too i suppose

My 3 year old regularly shits his pants. Today he wanted to be a bird. Any parent who takes this shit seriously has serious problems.

Sorry about the rant but I have been reading these threads over the last few days and my frustration has obviously built up

Was a bloody good rant, guardian. I wholeheartedly agree.

Big pharma, yeah because the 3 year old who says mommy i'm not a boy i'm a girl is under so much pharmaceutical influence. Must be the internet they are using too i suppose
What is it with the idea that a three year old child could possibly have an idea that they are trans? It can only be as a result of some outside influence, but obviously not the internet.
Three year olds do not have a clear idea of what sex and gender mean.
My just-turned three year old knows he is a boy (because we say 'good boy', etc), but has very little idea of what that actually means. When he sees me having a wee he says 'do you need to wipe your willy mummy?' I explain to him why not, but it goes in one ear and out the other.
We are his main influence as his parents and, because I don't shove 'gender stereotypes' at him, he has no idea about 'boys' things' or 'girls' things' or how girls and boys are 'supposed' to act. He will, unfortunately, get these ideas when he goes to school and has more friends, but we will talk about how they are just stereotypes when we get there.
It's working so far with my seven year old.

guardianfree No apologies needed, thats an excellent post. And it needed saying.

They know that there are other children now who are going through what they did and don't want to see them going through a lifetime of it.

And in what world, Debbie, is the projection of adults a suitable threshold for the medicalisation of children? Absolute balderdash. And dangerous balderdash.

You're suggesting it's absolutely fine for TRAs to lobby for increased medicalisation of children even though all the data tell us that the vast majority of dysphoric kids will desist. You are saying that medicating with the full knowledge the majority of the medicated will be false positives is a worthwhile and understandable objective for TRAs.

I'm just gobsmacked. Shame on you.

guardianfree - righteous rant. No need to apologise.

Debbie, if you think a three year old has the capacity to decide to sterilize themselves, do you also think they have the capacity to decide to have sex with adults?

Debbie6666

I watched a live debate unfold with Dr Webbley online.

After a lot of pressure, she finally admitted that puberty blockers remain completely untested long term. Despite prescribing them to children. Ffs.

She was also singularly unable to define gender. Again, despite talking about it.

She accused people of bigotry.

As far as I know, she has little to no background in the study of gender dysphoria.

The fact that you are using her ‘diagnosis by email’ only being for adults, as a defence, is risible. You can’t even get a course of antibiotics over the phone!

She is very well known in the trans-community. She is ear-marked as a pushover doctor.

Your defence of her shows bias. Doctors do not get investigated for nothing.

As for would women identify as men, to access their privilege. Of course we bloody would.

Millions and millions of women display stereotypically male characteristics. It gets them precisely no-where in terms of male privilege.

Where are all the transmen who are making headlines? The only ones I know, are feted for the way they look. Or giving birth. Or being raped.

Where is this male privilege that correlates to an innate sense of being a man?

Nuffaluff
You're doing what good parents do. But when you read the transgender guidelines put out by different organisations (obviously with the involvement of pressure groups) parents are positioned as ' problem'. Possibly being 'unsupportive' of a child. Possibly needing the involvement of Social Services (no doubt to be reeducated).
The judgement in the case of the child J is always worth a read to see just how a pressure group (in this case Mermaids) along with unthinking Social Services actively undermined one parent, supported a parent with obvious 'issues' and acted against the best interests of a child.
It's long but a fascinating account.
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

Big Parma would be very interested in medicalizing a 3 year old said “I’m not a boy, I’m a girl There is no money in working on eliminating gender stereotyping, and building a society where no one is restricted in their choices by their sex. There is plenty of money in reinforcing gender stereotypes. From making sure that clothes, toys and prams can’t be handed down to a lifetime of expensive medication for a child who doesn’t fit into rigid “norms”

And now a whole lot of stuff implied which i did not say.

Which bits?

@Debbie6666
I quoted you directly and then referred to recently published guidelines about transgender children - can link if needed.

"Has anyone noticed that transwomen make the news for success in business, sport, the arts and politics, while transmen make the news for having babies?"
The Feminazgûl