Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

us

Oh that link doesn't work.

Datun Fri 22-Dec-17 15:15:06

Dr Webberly only diagnosed adults via email and through informed consent. All under 18's had to be seen in person by her. The case that brought her to be under investigation as i understand it was a pretty clear case of persistent and insistent gender dyphoria from a young age over extended time and contact with the Dr. The lead complainants to the GMC were also as i understand it the same ones that have tried to shut down every other private practising gender specialist in the country with the exception of gender care who happens to be the same Dr's who work in the NHS CHX GIC.

Its also a case of she is under investigation, nothing has been found at fault so lets not get ahead of ourselves.

If we want to eliminate private informed consent and black market HRT then beefing up the NHS budget and making it an appealing area to specialise for DR's would be a very good way to do it. But the social outrage of "transing" kids or paying for "sex changes" on the NHS is such that the provision is far below the NHS charter and legal obligation due to the near impossibility of getting Dr's into the speciality.

*I think that a lot of the pushing for kids to be transed is about validation for older trans people that they are actually 'women' or 'men'.

If we get to a place where it is totally socially acceptable to drug children and multilate their genitals to 'correct' them, then it holds up this idea that transgenderism is nothing to do with 'social cosntructs', it's science, and you can't argue with that*

I totally agree with this. I think a lot are also relishing the power it gives them, particularly over women.

I would still like to hear an explanation of what "gender identity," is, if it really is a thing that is distinct from culturally prescribed gender roles and gendered expression.

The "what is color to a blind person" analogy doesn't work; because while a blind person can't "see" color they can very well understand the science behind color. A blind person can understand how different color objects reflect different wavelengths of light, and how the eye and brain interpret those different wavelengths as different colors. They won't be able to experience that themselves, but they can understand the mechanics behind it.

I want to know the mechanics behind "gender identity" and "being born in the wrong body." I want to know the scientific principles and process behind it. I want to see the research that defines and supports it as a concept.

Because, "I can't really describe, I don't know what it is, many people don't have one, but it's totally exists and can not be explained by any other cause or phenomena" is not a good justification for any kind of medical intervention.

I would still like to hear an explanation of what "gender identity," is, if it really is a thing that is distinct from culturally prescribed gender roles and gendered expression.
Yes me too Debbie. Do you have a gender identity for example? I don't.

I think that a lot of the pushing for kids to be transed is about validation for older trans people that they are actually 'women' or 'men'.

I actually think many trans adults know they knew as little children and suffered in silence in the closet for feat of family and social rejection.They know it never went away and only finally transitioning when life became intolerable otherwise. They know that there are other children now who are going through what they did and don't want to see them going through a lifetime of it, but rather give them a voice and support they need.

It is not some sinister plot to convert the world to trans. Its understanding and compassion in a world that doesn't believe them or in many case disbelief that trans and their gender identity even exist. A world that accuses them of homophobia simply for existing when the evidence is that many trans people tried being gay first and there are transgender people of all sexual persuasions.

They just want to make the kids life easier so they don't have to be suicidal to seek help.

lunamoth581

Gender identity is why none of the women on here live their lives as males to achieve elevated social status.

Would you transition if it meant you would not be subject to male oppression?

If not, why not?

If your answer is "Because i am a woman" then you have found your gender identity.

If you say its because you have a vagina, then you looked in your pants. Pull up your trousers and think again.

If you said you would. why haven't you?

The fact of the matter is that the route to hormone blockers in the NHS is long and cautious. The very diagnostic for prescribing PB's is that the child is insistent and persistent so its hardly surprising that the ones that actually get PB's are persistent, It is actually more likely that the 100% persistence is evidence that the approach is too cautious and kids are going without help where they should receive it. Your stats of 15-35% of kids who sought help were left untreated is further evidence to this.

And this? No. That 100% persistence after puberty blockers is alarming. It should raise red flags. No treatment modality is 100% effective for all 100% of the time. And no screening process or diagnostic tool, no matter how carefully implemented and how vigorously tested, is effective 100% of the time. There are always false positive and false negatives. That 100% of children who receive puberty blockers go on to transition indicates that there is something about this process that makes desistance difficult or impossible; not that the screening process is just that good.

This is particularly true since we know that most GNC children, even those who express a wish to be the opposite sex, will desist in that wish.

This is a Journalists dream you would think. I've always thought the trans thing daft but when I found out the girl who runs Mermaids took her son to Thailand to be castrated for his 16th birthday it just screamed sinister to me.

Every article on Facebook regarding Trans has 95% of folk calling it out for the rubbish it is ir just blatantly laughing at them.

Why is it not being taken up by an investigating reporter?

lunamoth581

^And this? No. That 100% persistence after puberty blockers is alarming. It should raise red flags. No treatment modality is 100% effective for all 100% of the time. And no screening process or diagnostic tool, no matter how carefully implemented and how vigorously tested, is effective 100% of the time. There are always false positive and false negatives. That 100% of children who receive puberty blockers go on to transition indicates that there is something about this process that makes desistance difficult or impossible; not that the screening process is just that good.

This is particularly true since we know that most GNC children, even those who express a wish to be the opposite sex, will desist in that wish.^

Not really true if you wait long enough so that there is no other choice or explanation. We could wait and see with skin moles, but if they look dodgy we cut them out and send them for testing. most of them are benign. As such the you could measure the statistics that skin moles are rarely detected so the treatment method is wrong. In reality its pretty noninvasive to cut one out and test it than wait and see of the patient dies of skin cancer. With trans kids its the other way around. We wait a long time to be absolutely sure, as such there is a high degree of certainty when they prescribe PB's. is it 100% I doubt it, but that was not my statistic. But when the protocols are followed its pretty damn high. But it most definitely is a false equivalence to say that PB's prevent a change of direction.

Gender identity is why none of the women on here live their lives as males to achieve elevated social status.

No, that's because "living as males" does nothing to erase female oppression. Even if I were to live as a man, I would still have to deal with the possibility of rape, the erosion of abortion rights, etc. And it would also do nothing to erase my female socialization.

Would you transition if it meant you would not be subject to male oppression?

Absolutely. In a heartbeat. I would love to see a 25% increase in my paycheck, for one. But as I said, me transitioning does not mean that I am magically not subjected to oppression based upon my sex.

If not, why not?

See above.

If your answer is "Because i am a woman" then you have found your gender identity.

No, my answer is because I am biologically female, a material reality.

If you say its because you have a vagina, then you looked in your pants. Pull up your trousers and think again.

Excuse me, what? Yeah, no, I know I'm biologically female because I was born with a uterus, ovaries, vagina, labia and clitoris. My femaleness was confirmed when I began to menstruate, then again when I gestated a fetus in my uterus for nine months, then delivered her through my vagina. This is my physical, material reality. This is the physical, material body I inhabit. None of this has anything to do with my brain or any internal sense of self.

If you said you would. why haven't you?

I have already answered that question. It wouldn't do me any good. Might as well wear whatever it is I like and pursue any interests that I like, because my clothing, personality and interests have nothing to do with how society treats female human beings.

Not really true if you wait long enough so that there is no other choice or explanation.

Puberty blockers must be given in early puberty in order for them to be effective. How long is a "super long" wait? We're talking kids 10-13 ish here.

"No other explanation?" Most GNC children who express a wish to change sex desist in that wish in adulthood. We are puttong these children on a pathway to transition before the reach adulthood. We are starting puberty blockers before they reach adulthood.

The skin cancer analogy doesn't work, either. Having a mole cut off is a simple outpatient procedure that is quick, not too painful, and leaves (at worst) a small scar. Puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and GRS are bit more involved and carry abbot more risk than having a suspicious mole removed.

If your answer is "Because i am a woman" then you have found your gender identity.

You are off your trolley. Woman is not gender identity. Woman is sex. Biological sex.

If not, why not?

Transitioning to a man to be less oppressed wouldn't work because ...you might have to sit down for this...it still make me a woman because that is what I am. You cannot just think yourself into another creature.

"Gender identity is why none of the women on here live their lives as males to achieve elevated social status."

Seriously? You really believe that hogwash? You really think you can identify your way out of the material reality of being oppressed because of your biological sex?

Where do you think sex-based oppression comes from? Is it that liking pink sparkles is like some magic form of kryptonite?

Don't be bloody daft. Men are on average bigger and stronger than us, and we are the ones who get pregnant and nurse small children and are physically vulnerable at these points in our life, so the opportunity and means to oppress us are there. We have something they don't, which they want to control - the ability to have children. Because BIOLOGY. Not pink sparkles. Not painted nails. Frigging biology. The possession of a uterus and ovaries. (NAMALT, but they all benefit from the possibility even if they're not the ones actually doing the oppressing).

lunamoth581

and if you don't conflate your sexual identity with your gender identity how about then.

Say if by magic you woke up tomorrow with a male body but still your same brain.

Are you a man or a woman? You socialisation is still the same, but are women actually defined entirely by that? if so then what about trans kids who transitioned early. They have the socialisation in their gender identity but not their bodily sex.

You would be free of the risks of rape (for the most part) so no need to worry about that. But a woman is not defined by being at risk of rape I hope.

In your new male body would your sexuality change because your now male? It doesn't have anything to do with gender identity but if it remains the same, how will you experience sex now. you no longer have a vagina. Would that bother you?

It is a really tough thing to explain to someone who does not recognise they have a gender identity or even believe it exists and I think the colour exercise is accurate.

You can explain colour as much as you like in science but a blind person who has never seen blue can never truly know what blue looks like. indeed there is a good chance what i see as blue your brain would perceive as yellow. no one knows what blue looks like to anyone else, no one can explain blue without resorting to comparisons experiences such as the sky is blue, Trans people can not explain their gender identity to someone who is blind to it than you can explain colour to a blind person. The best they can do is resort to stereotypes ans simplification that might be understood, But they do know that something isn't right and when they talk to others they see that they fit better in the other role and transitioning more often than not feels right.

Gender is something that is done to me, not something inside my head. That's what you're fundamentally failing to grasp. Leaving aside the batshit thought experiments, of course having a female body and being treated as female by a society that has a shit-tonne of prejudices about what that says about me has impacted the way my personality has formed. But there are no such things as lady brains and bloke brains. I can't believe you actually believe all this pink brain, blue brain shite.

The skin cancer analogy doesn't work, either. Having a mole cut off is a simple outpatient procedure that is quick, not too painful, and leaves (at worst) a small scar. Puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and GRS are bit more involved and carry abbot more risk than having a suspicious mole removed.

Yep, thats what i said and why they have different treatment protocols, you completely missed my point.

Are you a man or a woman? You socialisation is still the same, but are women actually defined entirely by that? if so then what about trans kids who transitioned early. They have the socialisation in their gender identity but not their bodily sex.

Hmmmmmm, this is another reason I wonder if certain groups are super keen to trans children - so that people can no longer use the 'you were socialised as male' as an argument as to why transwomen are not actual women.

They have the socialisation in their gender identity but not their bodily sex.

They don't have the same socialisation as most others of the sex they identify as. Because people will be treating them with kid gloves and telling them how unique and special they are, probably more do if they are male. It's not true to say a trans identified boy is socialised in the same way as his female classmates.

Hmmmmmm, this is another reason I wonder if certain groups are super keen to trans children - so that people can no longer use the 'you were socialised as male' as an argument as to why transwomen are not actual women.

YY.

I still want to know who benefits from all this. Big Pharma?

Would you transition if it meant you would not be subject to male oppression?
No. Because

1. as a curvy 5'3" woman now there is no way I would pass
2. because I don't want a medically induced menopause and all the side effects that come with testosterone, like vaginal atrophy, urinary incontinence and heart problems;
3. because I don't want to confuse the heck out of my children
4. because I don't want my husband to leave me
5. because I don't want to make my husband identify as gay when he's not
6. because I don't want to be a man (which doesn't mean I identify with the female gender identity, unless you are enforcing a strict binary)

But most importantly
6) because I believe women should be deconstructing patriarchal oppression, not trying to identify our way our of it

I would still like to see an explanation of gender identity to the same level as my explanation of colours

Argh, gender is not an 'innate' thing!

I know I am a woman because of my vagina, breasts, periods, uterus, ability to get pregnant and bear children, my smaller than average height and strength.

Women are oppressed because of their vaginas, breasts, periods, uteruses, ability to get pregnant and bear children, generally smaller height and reduced strength.

It's so offensive to say that none of those things matter, that your gender is an innate thing that you have chosen to identify with. It implies that women who have been oppressed have identified into that oppression.

They haven't, their oppression is based on their biology, that's it. No one gives a fuck about 'gender identity' when it comes to treating women as second class citizens.