Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Oh this is the new rule that means if a man says he is a woman then he is even while he's wearing a man's suit, sporting a beard, and behaving towards women in a way that women identify as male?

So if my DH right now says "i'm a woman" then he is one, literally no different from me, and then 5 mins later says "I'm a man" again, then he becomes a man by magic.

Not that I think that adopting the trappings of one gender or the other means that you miraculously become that sex, either.

Gender Identity and Gender Expression are entirely different things, you just described the latter

Gender expression is just another word for personality traits and how they correlate to the imposition of gender roles by a patriarchal society.

Gender identity does not exist other than as a metaphysical belief that human beings have ineffable essences, commonly described as souls, that are separate from the body.

perfectly

That statistic isn’t 37 out of 2000 children it’s 37 children full stop. Out of all children.

Gender Identity and Gender Expression are entirely different things, you just described the latter

Interesting.

So gender expression would be presenting in a way typical of a specific sex. Which reinforces gender stereotypes.

How would you describe gender identity? If it’s the innate feeling of being a man or a woman, how do you describe that?

Without resorting to gender stereotypes.

And how does it account for the fact that many people don’t have it, and that some people change on a daily basis?

PricklyBall

Except that I have never seen anyone give an account of gender identity which did not rely on what you're calling gender expression (i.e. gender in the old social sciences sense of culturally sanctioned and enforced roles, behaviours and clothing arbitrarily deemed appropriate to a particular sex).

Probably due to lack of vocabulary and understanding on both sides of the discussion. Its like the born in the wrong body. its a oversimplification to describe something very complex. Doesn't change the experience just the ability to communicate it.

Try describing colour to a blind person. Hell try describing colour to anyone. doesn't mean colour doesn't exist.

The fact of the matter is that the route to hormone blockers in the NHS is long and cautious.

Eh? How is it? Puberty blockers have to be delivered at the onset of puberty. At a specific point in the Tanner stage. There is no ‘long’ about it.

Datun

Eh? How is it? Puberty blockers have to be delivered at the onset of puberty. At a specific point in the Tanner stage. There is no ‘long’ about it.

And kids have to go through long assessments to show insistence and persistence none the less, puberty raging or not. Plenty of trans kids turn to online sources both legal and black market.

The most likely cases to receive them have been in the system for a long time first

"'And kids have to go through long assessments to show insistence and persistence none the less,"

And when kids are persistent, we give in to them, right? Because in your view, that's good parenting...?

Debbie6666

I agree that some things defy description. However, when trans people do describe it, they absolutely talk about stereotypes.

Every single narrative I have ever read, and I have read loads, talks about nothing but stereotypes.

Both those of women which they embrace, and those of men which they reject.

Every single detransitioning story talks about stereotypes.

One TW on here said it made him feel more ‘vibrant’. It made him feel it. Not that he felt vibrant and couldn’t express it.

Which was obviously, exactly what it was. He wanted to be vibrant but felt stymied by his masculine role. It was liberating for him to transition.

It’s really not difficult to understand. And it’s really not difficult to realise it’s completely regressive.

debbie
There are these little molecules called pigments and they absorb different wavelength of light. Each kind of pigment absorbs a different wavelength and because they are tiny molecules you can mix them into infinite combinations.

If you took three identical objects and coated them all in different mixtures, the objects would then be visibly different to each other. The differences between them are called colours.
Colours have names. Black is when the pigments absorb all the wavelengths of light. White is when all the light is reflected.

Other names are red, blue and yellow.

Right, now I want an explanation of gender identity.

The most likely cases to receive them have been in the system for a long time first

There's several groups now for parents of kids who think they are trans. They are horrified that hormones are suggested after just one brief meeting.

"Mummy I want a willy for Christmas"

For Sale creepy willies for the under 10 Transboy

Can someone tell me, on what planet does an under 10 girl have use for this?

What parent thinks, hey that's a great idea and in no way, dubious.

In both genders the total suppression of sex hormones causes the psychological side effects that are akin to gender dysphoria.

If this were true I'd expect to see loads of middle aged women developing gender dysphoria. In fact, older female transitioners are notable by their absence.

I'd also expect to see high rates of gender dysphoria among children who are prescribed puberty blockers for precocious puberty.

QuentinSummers

very good but i still have no idea what blue looks like.

Debbie6666

So how does that work in practice? If a child presents at the clinic just before Tanner stage two, do they say no we will give it a year before we introduce puberty blockers?

What determines prescribing them? Is it the parents’ confirmation that they have been persistent? Or is it the clinic monitoring that persistence for themselves?

Datum

The latter. But with input from the parents and the child. I;m not fully experienced in the operation of the TV+P but pretty sure they don't give them out like candy.

I have seen close hand how adult GIC's operate though and turning up already on HRT is not enough to give a diagnosis and prescription there and then, it requires a second opinion which is usually 3-6 months apart and that is only if there is strong evidence in persistence in the first appointment and that is one of the more relaxed GIC's

Red

The Teeny Tiny would be for a kid under 5 and is really mini.

Dear god. Who on earth would give these to under 5s?

Drawing attention to their genitalia is just creepy. What happens in PE? Who are they expecting to be staring at these children’s groins?

In order for a woman to orgasm, she first has to feel turned on. The clitoris becomes engorged with blood, much in the same way a penis does.

Engorged yes. I have literally never heard of a woman getting an erection.

Debbie6666

The doctor that Mermaids were recommending diagnosed people via email.

Thankfully, she is now under investigation.

But the group that advises the government was also advising people to go to her. They are also the group that put propaganda into schools.

Have you seen the CPS endorsed lessons ? Absolutely disgracefully, blatantly one-sided.

I’m sure the Tavistock operate as ethically as they can.

But the push of gender dysphoria as an ideology is creating a market for online drugs, dodgy doctors, and ridiculous things like mini penises for toddlers.

Personally, I would like to see a massive scale back of the entire issue. Put it firmly back into the domain of the medical community. Not the political community.

People like GIRES are recommending cake parties if a child says they are trans. And the elevation to ‘incredibly special’ of a child who is transitioning is making it an aspiration.

Given there is no objective test of gender dysphoria, other than what the person says, it’s encouraging a whole generation of children to think there is something wrong with them, when there isn’t.

Perfectly, as I understand it:
The '37 out of 2000 children would display 'genuine' gender dysphoria' meant that the typical rates presenting at the Tavistock used to be 37 children per year, pretty consistently. Now, it's around 2000 per year.

Hence, of around 2000 children, chances are that only 37 or so per year have what used to be diagnosed as persistent gender dysphoria. That's 37 out of 10 million or so children nationwide, not out of 2000.

Oh my actual god that link Red - just..... what?

Who the fucking fuck would get their under 5 girl to wear one of these 'packers'? I am genuinely angry that this is out there and it's possible that there are children who are actually bring subjected to this complete and utter horseshit.

Had a look round the website and it dies seem like a 'here are the tools you need to completely confuse and mess up your kid'. This 'How Babies are Made' book apparently manages to fully explain how babies are made without the need to use any if those old fashioned terms like 'male' or 'female'.

transkids.biz/products/what-makes-a-baby

Sorry, I am just gobsmacked and rather raging that this stuff exists.

Red Is that link seriously fucking true?? Has that been checked out? Please tell me that's a troll trying to make us all look batshit when we go and see our MP's.

Seriously, I am really worried that's true because you're a long standing very articulate and rational poster

This 'How Babies are Made' book apparently manages to fully explain how babies are made without the need to use any if those old fashioned terms like 'male' or 'female'.

Flies in the face of the PANTS campaign doesn't it, is that the point?

Debbie6666

You are being completely disingenuous. You know perfectly well that the TRA organisations are lobbying for more, earlier and affirmation only interventions for minors. They are lobbying for less gate keeping and less exploratory therapy. You know this. We know this. The lobbyists know this.

Stop acting as if transactivism is advocating for the status quo when you know very well that it is not.

WTAFisthisshit

That site is absolutely genuine. And it’s not the only one. The one I saw a couple of months ago was worse.

The people that made the packers are the same people who make rubber sex dolls which look like minors.

The 'parent company' of that Trans Kids website is called 'Early2Bed' - it sells sex toys.

us