Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

it really should be taken case by case

Exactly perfectly. That's why I can't support the current narrative that transgenderism falls under the same umbrella as transsexuality. The whole 'born in the wrong body' thing. All the generalisations. Especially when this is taught in schools. It's way, way too simplistic. It's harmful.

However some generalisations are possible and backed up with excellent evidence: it is never possible to change reproductive sex. Gender varies throughout time and place and is a social construct.

Would you allow your child, who absolutely does not have the capacity to understand how decisions made now will impact them for the rest of their life, believe that they can actually change sex, that they can actually become a girl/boy? Would you allow them to have parts of their body mutilated, and take medication for the rest of their life so that this lie can be upheld?

This, to me, is the key question. These children don't understand the seriousness of what they are doing (potentially starting down a path to irreversible sterility and other damage to their bodies at the age of 9) and they need people to look out for them. They are being sold a lie.

I also wanted to say that I am not minimising the experiences of families going through this or saying 'get over it, they will grow out of it'. It must be really difficult but that is kind of the point - certain groups are taking advantage of the vulnerability of these families to push their agenda.

I am just really concerned about the aggressive say some groups appear to be pushing kids into making life changing decisions, decisions they can't possibly understand the implications because they are children, at such a young age. It's sinister.

And these significant risks are not being spelled out. Why is that?

I'm a parent myself and if my daughter persistently and repeatedly told me she was a boy from toddlerhood

I would be very curious how they knew, and concerned what was being taught to them that they felt they had to care. My kids were very foggy on boyhood until they were 5 or 6 - even now, my 7 year old knows by rote, but doesn't really pay attention to it all. My youngest is bringing home ideas that pink (his favourite colour) is for girls and I'm teaching him colours are for everyone - he wouldn't get any ideas about what boy and girl means, beyond physical characteristics from me, so it wouldn't occur to him there's any way to be but his own.

I think that a lot of the pushing for kids to be transed is about validation for older trans people that they are actually 'women' or 'men'.

If we get to a place where it is totally socially acceptable to drug children and multilate their genitals to 'correct' them, then it holds up this idea that transgenderism is nothing to do with 'social cosntructs', it's science, and you can't argue with that.

So basically pushing children into a lifetime of irreversible all sorts when they are too young to understand, just to validate your own feelings. Bravo.

So basically pushing children into a lifetime of irreversible all sorts when they are too young to understand, just to validate your own feelings. Bravo.

Many trans activists clearly are narcissists. Why would they care?

Debbie this article is about the long term effects of puberty blockers on children treated with them for early onset puberty
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

I guess you may be correct that treating with cross sex hormones minimises the risk. But that makes a mockery of the idea that the blockers are reversible and just there to give the child time to make their own decision.

The chances of a child having gender dysphoria are absolutely tiny. Minuscule.

A reality TV program that celebrates it and creates aspiration is beyond irresponsible.

As is the propaganda in schools. It’s horrifying that children are being given lessons in transgender, as if it’s a choice and being asked whether they might be transgender.

What on earth are children going to make of this? Almost all of them will question themselves based on their toy preferences.

It doesn’t even need to be mentioned in schools. Unless there is a child attending who has gender dysphoria. And their parents will know that way before the school.

We have literally hundreds of confused children showing up at gender clinics.

It doesn’t take even a modicum of intelligence to connect the dots.

Instead of telling parents their child will kill themselves unless they transition and using bogus stats, why don’t they give them the statistics that only 37 out of 2000 children will display genuine gender dysphoria?

Deliberately conflating a political agenda with the medicalisation of children is shameful.

I have no doubt that mermaids and gires will be looked back on in the same light as the kids company.

I was reading that in Peru (not exactly a bastion of women's rights) they have successfully got a questionable gender identity section taken out of the curriculum after large scale protests. This agenda is being pushed all over the world.

Granted she may not be able to achieve an erection, but why should she to achieve satisfaction.

@Debbie6666

Women don't get erections do they? That is men.

No erection=no orgasm
Clitoral or penile

LangCleg Fri 22-Dec-17 12:05:55

Sorry you can not make that false equivalence. Its no better than saying chemotherapy causes cancer. (yeah straw man and all)

The fact of the matter is that the route to hormone blockers in the NHS is long and cautious. The very diagnostic for prescribing PB's is that the child is insistent and persistent so its hardly surprising that the ones that actually get PB's are persistent, It is actually more likely that the 100% persistence is evidence that the approach is too cautious and kids are going without help where they should receive it. Your stats of 15-35% of kids who sought help were left untreated is further evidence to this.

your last point about the unacceptable side effects, indicate given there is a 100% persistence in current diagnosis that moving onto cross sex hormones quicker to prevent these side effects might be a better idea.

SpartonDregs

Women don't get erections do they? That is men.

Doubt she is that bothered then. Have you seen here complaining she can't get it up?

QuentinSummers

No erection=no orgasm
Clitoral or penile

Complete and utter bullshit.

I found the thing about JJ really viscerally upsetting. The idea that a teen child - a teen child who started male - has no sex drive, has never had an orgasm, is sort of suspended in a permanent prepubescent state - it's just incredibly upsetting.

There is the point (that others may have made I've not read the last day or so) that the blockers block the normal development of the brain at puberty - the "teenageryness" that we all dread in our kids but is a normal healthy part of growing up, separating from parents, maturing - that doesn't happen as normal puberty doesn't happen. Hormones do more at puberty than just secondary sexual characteristics. They make us grow from a child to an adult.

Datun those are really interesting stats. Can you share the source? I didn't realise 37 out of 2000 children would display 'genuine' gender dysphoria. I calculate that to be 1.85% which is higher than I expected.

So in your average primary school of 100 kids you could expect 1 or 2 to be transgender.

In order for a woman to orgasm, she first has to feel turned on. The clitoris becomes engorged with blood, much in the same way a penis does. The clitoris becomes erect.
If this doesn't happen, she won't get an orgasm.
So not utter bullshit at all.
To be honest debbie, I'd expect you, as a woman (I can tell you are one, because of your username), to know this.

"No I think child abuse is... causing them distress by forcing your views of gender identity onto them."

Men and women can do whatever job and wear whatever clothes and have their hair and do whatever hobbies they like darling. If anyone tells you that you aren't allowed / can't do something because you are a boy / girl you just ignore them.

Wow what abusive fuckers

The fact of the matter is that the route to hormone blockers in the NHS is long and cautious.

Debbie, did you read what I said? This is what I said:

Those promoting and advocating for a change in NHS policy to affirmation only (see recent memorandum of understanding) are advocating for gay conversion therapy.

Current transactivism - including charities supposedly supporting GNC children such as Mermaids and GIRES - is about lobbying for NHS GIDS for minors to adopt the affirmation model that has swept the USA and Canada. And they are succeeding - see the UK Council for Psychotherapy's Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy as one success in this TRA campaign.

My understanding is that there are currently about 800 children in the UK on puberty blockers. This is still a massive increase from even a few years ago but still relatively small in comparison to the 2,000 or so children referred to GIDS each year. If the TRA lobbying succeeds in entrenching affirmation only protocols, we will see orders of magnitude increases in the number of children on puberty blockers.

This, to my mind, given the power of the drugs, the serious nature of the side effects, and the historical rates of desistance, is a future health disaster and scandal in the making.

How anyone, pro or anti transactivism, could support this lobbying, is utterly beyond me. I think it's grotesque.

Nuffaluff

Any any number of pre- op trans women experiences of orgasm without erection doesn't count i suppose.

Trans women can be aroused and have a penile orgasm whilst remaining entirely flaccid

I think a lot of girls would be keen to get their hands on puberty blockers for obvious reasons.

In my day they starved themselves to try and hold it all off.

How this is not recognised as driving the huge increases in girls seeking this, is baffling. Ditto binding.

VerticalBlinds

Men and women can do whatever job and wear whatever clothes and have their hair and do whatever hobbies they like darling. If anyone tells you that you aren't allowed / can't do something because you are a boy / girl you just ignore them.

Gender Identity and Gender Expression are entirely different things, you just described the latter

Except that I have never seen anyone give an account of gender identity which did not rely on what you're calling gender expression (i.e. gender in the old social sciences sense of culturally sanctioned and enforced roles, behaviours and clothing arbitrarily deemed appropriate to a particular sex).

LangCleg

Affirmation protocols are not without diagnosis, they are the treatment plan once the diagnosis is made, they still need a diagnosis which is insistent and persistent. So no conversion therapy or pray the trans away.

Any any number of pre- op trans women experiences of orgasm without erection doesn't count i suppose.
These are transwomen who have gone through puberty and could become sexually aroused before transition.
Jazz has no sexual function or arousal because of the medication.
That is an awful side effect of the puberty blockers. Children are being harmed by this practice. They are being used as political pawns.