Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

But I'm not really sure discussing an under age child's genitals on a message board is in anyway helpful to Jazz's well-being.

But discussing them on a TV show, with the child, it's parents, the consultant, the TV crew in the room, then broadcast to millions around the world is OK? Great for that child's well being? Jazz is being used as a cash cow, the programme will be hugely profitable, the more traumas Jazz has to go through the more that audience will be hooked in.

It's immoral.

I don't think bone thinning is a symptom of dysphoria.

I'm not sure death is either Quentin.

Or that there are physiological differences in trans people to everyone else, which would be the basis of there being a separate set of contraindications and side effects for each group.

Thehairthebod

Trans people have been identifying as gay rather a lot before realising that is not their answer and transitioning.

Gay erasure by trans people is far less prevalent than trans erasure by gay people. (and yes that is a clumsy simplistic statement which will now be misinterpreted)

The simple fact of the matter is homosexuality and transgender are not the same thing but are often confused to be so.

I went to school with someone like Jazz, and actually used to try and convince 'him' he was gay. This was before being trans was ever spoken about so her conviction she was a girl can't have been for attention or a fad. My friend kept telling me over and over she wasn't a gay boy, she was a girl.

Sexuality is nothing to do with it.
Some trans women are attracted to women and some trans men attracted to men. It's not about sexuality at all.

Debbie6666

Jazz doesn’t have any libido. An adult clitoris has twice the number of nerve endings as an adult penis. The clitoris extends right up inside the vagina. It’s much bigger than just the ‘button’ on the front.

The depth of the neovagina is directly related to the length of the penis used.

You can’t seriously agree that what has happened to jazz is a good thing. Honestly?

And in terms of discussing Jazz’s genitalia. Jazz is making a series of TV shows about the very subject.

On said TV show, Jazz asked his father, at teatime, how much of his mother’s vagina he sees when having sex. (His dad has to leave the table as he is a bit embarrassed.)

Jazz is concerned about his genitalia, and broadcasts it around the world.

"But I'm not really sure discussing an under age child's genitals on a message board is in anyway helpful to Jazz's well-being."

I am absolutely aghast at this comment. It's ok to medicalise and sterilise an "underage child" but not ok to discuss the consequences. This is child abuse, pure and simple. That's what you are defending Debbie. You scold us for being what you think is unkind, but you are condoning and defending and promoting child abuse.

Seriously in what world is mutilating a kids genitals OK or even a 'grey area' ? Debbie are you actually defending this?

You can't change sex. That's it. We should not be telling children that a boy can become a girl because it's not true.

It's also incredibly arrogant to say you know a stranger's mind better than both the individual and their parents.

QuentinSummers

I did not say that there was a complete overlap of the side effects, bone density is a result of not having any sex hormones, obviously a trans person replaces those hormones though so don't suffer from osteoporosis

In both genders the total suppression of sex hormones causes the psychological side effects that are akin to gender dysphoria.

In trans people suppressing the mismatch hormones causes a relief in gender dysphoria. This is reported in trans women who only take anti androgen for instance and was in the past (still is sometimes) used a a diagnostic tool for gender dysphoria.

Unfortunately all this is evidence pointing to hardwired sex differences in brains and that trans people have similarities and hormone receptors inline with their identified sex. That kind of speak is a big no no in these parts and not studied enough.

Ah now we resort to Ad Hominem and argumentum ad misericordiam

No I think child abuse is beating your child and causing them distress by forcing your views of gender identity onto them.

Some trans women are attracted to women and some trans men attracted to men. It's not about sexuality at all.

It is. In terms of motivation to transition. Gender dysphoria, vs autogynephilia.

Childhood gender dysphoria is highly correlated with homosexuality. And starts with gender nonconformity.

Statistically, if left alone, 60 to 90 percent reconcile to their natal sex during adolescence. And one of the biggest predictors of persistence is social transition.

This type of gender dysphoria has been well studied.

The other sort of dysphoria related to AGP, tends to occur around adolescence, is sexually motivated and is generally confined to heterosexuals. And always men.

There are other types. Late onset gender dysphoria is happening to many young women.

Explanations here.

4thwavenow.com/

Debbie6666: "No I think child abuse is beating your child and causing them distress by forcing your views of gender identity onto them."

Whereas chemically castrating them is fine, right?

causing them distress by forcing your views of gender identity onto them.

So instead the way to deal with it is by telling your child a lie (that they can change to the sex they want to be) and allowing them to have their genitals mutilated and be on medication for life?

Four catergories of child abuse.

Physical
Sexual
Emotional
Neglect

All considered equally damaging. The transing of underage children ticks all four categories.

So say your perfectly healthy weight child starts saying they are really fat and they need to lose weight. They are in no way fat and in no way need to lose weight. But when they look in the mirror they see someone really overweight. It is causing them huge amounts of distress and they are telling you that they really hate their body, they are talking about suicide and you can see that they are not eating properly.

Do you
a) encourage them in the hunger strikes, telling them that if they get down to a weight that they are happy with, whatever that weight is, things will be better. If their periods stop or they have other health problems because they starved themselves it doesn't matter because they will be happier if they are thinner. Look at pro ana sites with them, look at other girls who have stopped eating and lost lots of weight and hold them up as inspirational people who your child can look up to.

b) get them help and therapy to accept their healthy body as it is.

On brain scans people with gender dysphoria have had similar brain activity to people with body dysphoria/anorexia. So why do we insist on treating these conditions so differently?

Are you a doctor Debbie? Bioscienctist? There are lots of generalisations in your post at 11:00.41. I don't find it convincing.

This part of your statement:
Unfortunately all this is evidence pointing to hardwired sex differences in brains...

Does not tally with this part of your statement that it's...
..not studied enough

Yes that sort of speech is a big no no in these parts with good reason. We like peer reviewed research! Show me the evidence and I'll happily reconsider my current position.

The onus is on those who want to bring about such enormous change in medicine and society to demonstrate their case. Why and how is this change necessary? Why is a medical treatment pathway that causes sterility and other irreversible changes on balance necessary and beneficial? Are we completely sure when it comes to sterilising children?

perfectly we can't know what's inside another person's mind. But we do know that parents don't always make the best choices for their kids. Especially when they lack the information to do so. And we do know that teenagers don't always make the best choices for themselves. A quick browse on the teenage board is evidence of that.

As Datun said above, there is simply no long term evidence WRT medicalised trans kids. But there is evidence to suggest that most of those who remain unmedicalised come out the other side as gay young people. With healthy, intact bodies and minds that require no further treatment. Surely cause for caution in the medicalisation of trans kids?

Jazz Jennings is such a sad story. They will never ever be able to say 'look maybe this wasn't such a good idea' because of how publicized their life has been. Maybe it was the right choice for them, though jazz seems to not be so sure anymore.

Blockers should be illegal. Whoever first dreamed up using chemo drugs to help a kid pass better as an adult (fuck the health consequences..) is a sadist.

On brain scans people with gender dysphoria have had similar brain activity to people with body dysphoria/anorexia. So why do we insist on treating these conditions so differently?

A closer match for gender dysphoria would be BIID. But it is frowned upon to treat that with surgeries and such.

Thehairthebod gender dysphoria usually starts very young, aged 2 or 3, when anorexia is often a teenage thing.

I'm a parent myself and if my daughter persistently and repeatedly told me she was a boy from toddlerhood and became very distressed at the thought of female puberty I would take it seriously. I would be very concerned and frightened for her future but I wouldn't dismiss it. I would seek as much expert advice as I could to help my child as much as I could in their own unique circumstances.

If my teenage daughter who had shown no signs of gender dysphoria suddenly started claiming she was a boy that would be very different.

You can't lump all gender dysphoria into one simple category and label them all as 'delusions' - it really should be taken case by case.

I think all children paraded on reality TV like performing monkeys for their narcissistic parents and a prurient audience at home are being abused. Therefore, irrespective of trans identity, I think Jazz Jennings is being abused by their parents and the TV company before we even start to discuss the doctors and the medical procedures. And I think all such children - like the Hollywood child stars before them - run a much higher risk of dysfunctional adulthoods because of this childhood abuse. Again, regardless of either trans identification or sexuality.

But, for once, I can come near to agreeing with Debbie that I am uncomfortable discussing specifics of medical treatment of minors whether or not I think those minors are being abused by the adults around them. I'd rather stick to generalities - which I'll do in a separate post.

However there simply is not any data on the side effects of these drugs in transpeople

How are you defining "transpeople"? Because I think the definition most organisations use is rather broader than you are implying. And the damage which could potentially be done to children who would have eventually desisted is abhorrent.

That's an interesting theory Debbie but I'm not sure I really understand what you mean. Could you give me some examples of the symptoms you mean?

I'm a parent myself and if my daughter persistently and repeatedly told me she was a boy from toddlerhood and became very distressed at the thought of female puberty I would take it seriously. I would be very concerned and frightened for her future but I wouldn't dismiss it. I would seek as much expert advice as I could to help my child as much as I could in their own unique circumstances.

Would you allow your child, who absolutely does not have the capacity to understand how decisions made now will impact them for the rest of their life, believe that they can actually change sex, that they can actually become a girl/boy? Would you allow them to have parts of their body mutilated, and take medication for the rest of their life so that this lie can be upheld?

Fucking hell, some people on here get all funny about keeping the 'Father Christmas is real' thing going until their kid is 8 as it's a 'lie'.

No one is saying parents should just 'dismiss' it. But surely there is another way to help?

Regarding puberty blockers, I have many thoughts!

They are promoted by TRAs as a delaying tactic, a pause, a chance for a child to consider. But this is untrue. Puberty blockers are iatrogenic. Prescribing them causes* persistence. 65-85% of dysphoric children desist without them. 100% of dysphoric children persist with them. So puberty blockers actually function as the first step on a certain transition path, not a means of delaying a transition decision. We need to be honest about this.

• Because they are iatrogenic and because desisters most commonly grow up to be lesbian or gay, puberty blockers can be viewed as gay conversion therapy. Those promoting and advocating for a change in NHS policy to affirmation only (see recent memorandum of understanding) are advocating for gay conversion therapy.

• Studies show unacceptable levels of side effects in young people - from depression and suicidal ideation through reduced bone density right up to a loss of 5-10 IQ points (puberty is a vital time for cognitive development).

All in all, we should be at a point where we all understand that puberty blockers aren't a fully-reversible and harmless pause giving children time to reflect. They are powerful drugs with many side effects and risks. They should only be prescribed to minors in the rarest of rare cases and as an absolute last resort.