Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

I just think the first line of the tweet was clunky. That's all

If you truly believe that you can be a woman in your head and a man in your body, and it is real, accurate and needs surgical treatment, you should have absolutely no trouble with Jazz Jennings.

The face of a girl, the body of a woman, the genitals of a prepubescent boy. Permanently sterile, no sexual function and medicated for the rest of his life.

Plus Jazz is depressed. Despite having just about the most comprehensive support a trans person could ever have.

Jazz has never said that he wishes it had never happened. Well not publically, at any rate.

Does anyone really think that what has happened to Jazz is a reasonable and rational treatment for gender dysphoria? In fact gender dysphoria is rarely mentioned with regards to jazz. Gender nonconforming is mentioned all the time. Wanted to wear a tutu, for instance.

Yet Jazz is the poster child for everything trans. And stars in a reality TV programme dedicated to it.

Jazz has no sexual feeling. He is 17 and has never had an erection.

A terrible disservice has been done to him, the fact that he doesn’t realise it makes it worse.

What teenager wouldn't be depressed if their very existence is targeted with hate from around the world. Indeed even on a message board in the UK she is used as an example in an online argument with 90% of posters refusing to acknowledge and seeking to erase her very identity.

Funnily (not) enough a significant number of post transition transgender people report that the medical treatment does indeed resolve their gender dysphoria but social aspects with lack of acceptance from the public and family are a source of a great deal of distress.

What teenager wouldn't be depressed if their very existence is targeted with hate from around the world.

So it is everyone else's fault that this teenager is depressed? Surely depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain? You don't think it has anything to do with the medications they are on at all or that they have been sold a lie that they can change into a woman using hormones and medical treatments?

Are you reading Datun’s message as hate, Debbie? I’m seeing sympathy and grief for a child carried into that life despite not fully understanding it.
Though having said that, being a teenager whose genitals are discussed in other countries must be direly embarrassing.

But Debbie, Jazz is not targeted with hate. Jazz is raking in millions from a TV show. Because people watch it!

I refer to Jazz as he to make the point that if left alone, Jazz would’ve been growing up as a gay young man. Forming relationships and acting like any other 17-year-old.

Jazz can’t have sex, has no sexual feeling, is sterile, has had umpteen operations and is permanently medicated. He is also feted and celebrated as trans. Yet you still think his depression has nothing to do with what’s happened to him.

I certainly don’t hate him! What a nonsense.

Being concerned about the abuse of children (he made this decision when he was five years old) isn’t hate, ffs.

Jazz couldn’t be more protected. He has teams of people filtering absolutely everything.

curry, a transwoman who posts here and supports women got glassed in the face. That’s hate.

Funnily (not) enough a significant number of post transition transgender people report that the medical treatment does indeed resolve their gender dysphoria

I'd be genuinely interested to see the data on this. Particularly any reliable data covering people who transitioned in childhood.

but social aspects with lack of acceptance from the public and family are a source of a great deal of distress.

I can see how this might be the case and find it heartbreaking. It does not mean that these issues shouldn't be discussed. It doesn't mean that affirmation is always the right path for all teens.

SpartonDregs

Yep your correct. Depression has nothing to do with social interaction. Glad we fixed that one.

Lancelottie

I did not apply that label to Datuns message. If you want to, have at it.

Datun

But Debbie, Jazz is not targeted with hate

Jazz couldn’t be more protected. He has teams of people filtering absolutely everything.

Yeah, because people not targeted with hate need teams to filter everything.

People with teams filtering the world to protect them, know people hate them. That is not good for not being depressed.

Furthermore I'd go with what Jazz says caused her distress, not some random person on the internet some half a world away.

Thermostatpolice

There are statistics. Johns Hopkins University. Surgical transition does not make the person any happier. Despite often alleviating symptoms of gender dysphoria. Indicating there are other issues going on.

Also the suicide rate tends to spike 10 years after transition. The conclusion being that the longed for goal doesn’t materialise. The fantasy of actually becoming a woman doesn’t happen.

Many of the studies remain inconclusive because so many of the subjects subsequently drop out of the study. And know one knows if it’s because they are happy with the results, or unhappy.

I tend to think that if you are an adult and you want to have surgery, it’s your business. Although, full genital surgery does have quite a high dissatisfaction rate. Hence only a 15% take up.

In terms of long-term use of puberty blockers, it’s people like Jazz who are forming the study. Because it is new. No long-term studies have been made.

The part of Jazz’s story that horrified me was, having prescribed puberty blockers whilst he was at primary school, and then cross sex hormones, his surgeon seemed surprised at the result.

He pointed to Jazz’s breasts and said the drugs have done you a lot of favours there, then pointed to his groin a said but not down there.

As though the outcome could not have been predicted!

Grown men who have surgery can have a neovagina created from their penis. A boy who has taken puberty blockers and cross sex hormones has a micropenis, with no chance of turning it into a neovagina.

They have to use material from the colon, or, I believe, in Jazz’s case his torso. Surprisingly, Jazz remains undecided about genital surgery.

Either way, his chance of sexual sensation remains practically zero.

But yeah, that seems to come as a surprise. God knows how.

If the entire world jumped up and down and told jazz how amazing he was, (which many of them do), this kid has been messed up beyond belief.

Debbie6666

Have you watched the program? Does Jazz say the reason they are depressed is because they are targeted with hate?

Jazz on record as saying the reason for his depression is genetic. Because his mum gets depressed.

He also says that negative comments motivate him.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that jazz experiences negativity. I also have no doubt that that is not the cause of his depression.

In terms of long-term use of puberty blockers, it’s people like Jazz who are forming the study. Because it is new. No long-term studies have been made.

That's what I suspected Datun. There's certainly huge cause for caution on that basis alone.

Poor, poor Jazz. I think that your posts convey outrage on Jazz's behalf and concern for their suffering. If Jazz were to read them now (which I highly doubt) she might incorrectly interpret the lack of affirmation as hate. But I'd be willing to be that, in 10 years time, Jazz would read them and think 'people knew. They were looking out for me even then'.

What teenager wouldn't be depressed if their very existence is targeted with hate from around the world. Indeed even on a message board in the UK she is used as an example in an online argument with 90% of posters refusing to acknowledge and seeking to erase her very identity. what a lot of hyperbole. Erase her very identity . There is a whole TV show and books about her identity. Her identity is inflated, not erased.

Depression and mode swings can be a side effect of the hormone blocker Lupron, especially with long term use.
www.drugs.com/amp/sfx/lupron-side-effects.html

There also seems to be significant comorbidity of depression and transgenderism based on levels of reported suicidal feelings.

Depression and mode swings can be a side effect of the hormone blocker Lupron, especially with long term use.
www.drugs.com/amp/sfx/lupron-side-effects.html

Indeed it can. But it is worth pointing out that Lupron is not licenced for treating gender dysphoria. The side effects are those experienced by ciggender people having their hormone systems shut down. Funnily enough the list of side effects of all these drugs when used for their licenced purpose of shutting down sex hormones reads like a laundry list of gender dysphoria symptoms. Symptoms that go away in transpeople who are also on a regime of hormones that aligns with their identity.

However there simply is not any data on the side effects of these drugs in transpeople

Poor, poor Jazz. I think that your posts convey outrage on Jazz's behalf and concern for their suffering.

I have sons. Both of whom have been teenagers. And I know full well how long I spent on their teen self esteem. When they were confused, insecure, and their confidence hit the floor.

When I read about Jazz Jennings I am filtering it with everything I know about the ideology. How he parrots things like better a live daughter than a dead son. The skewed suicide stats, etc.

The fact that his mum says she has to remind him of things he said as a little boy. That led them to think he was trans. (surely, he would still be saying them?).

I’m sure his mother did genuinely think that he was transgender. Without any kind of critical thinking about what that actually means, in terms of gender nonconformity.

Jazz, to me, is already being looked at with the benefit of hindsight.

And it’s scares me to death.

Sorry but anyone who says the level of hate that is directed at Jazz has no effect on her mental health is an idiot.

That is not to say she doesn't use it as motivation to try and counter and eliminate it.

As far as I know Lupron is anti-cancer drug and is also used for precocious puberty. It is being used off label for trans-children.

It has never been used of the length of time that is now being used on children.

I’m not quite sure what your post means. You seem to be saying that the use of the drug worsens gender dysphoria?

A poster on here took the drug for, I believe, endometriosis. It has ruined her life. 10 years on she still suffering the effects.

The fact that his mum says she has to remind him of things he said as a little boy. That led them to think he was trans. (surely, he would still be saying them?).

No she wouldn't as they no longer affect her since she transitioned.

I’m not quite sure what your post means. You seem to be saying that the use of the drug worsens gender dysphoria

I'm saying it possibly causes a type of gender dysphoria in cisgender people. The side effects (which are measured on cisgender people) are a laundry list of the symptoms of gender dysphoria in trans people.

The Gender dysphoria symptoms go away in transgender people when their hormones are replaced by those matching their gender identity.

Either way, his chance of sexual sensation remains practically zero.

Well that simply is not true. Granted she may not be able to achieve an erection, but why should she to achieve satisfaction. The nerve ending are still there, the same nerve endings that can be found in the clitoris and ones who sexually active trans woman report giving much different sexual experience post transition than pre and experiences which are compatible to how natal females report sensation and orgasm.

But I'm not really sure discussing an under age child's genitals on a message board is in anyway helpful to Jazz's well-being.

Do we know that the disappearance of gender dysphoria actually arises from taking cross sex hormones, or whether it is a reaction to the fulfilment of a dream, and the euphoria that comes with that? Which can then wear off over time (hence spike in suicides 10 years later). Most follow up studies I have seen for satisfaction are for 1 year on.

So Debbie you are saying you are fine with what has happened to Jazz Jennings and would be totes OK with hundreds/thousands of children ending up the same? That it's something to be celebrated? Really?

You don't think he might have been happier as a gay 17 year old with fully functioning everything?

The problem is, because Jazz was such a poster girl for all this, there really isn't much chance for her or anyone in her camp right now to say 'actually............ Maybe this wasn't such a good idea'. It will take longer for anyone to come to that conclusion and in the meantime more children will end up with non functioning sexual organs - super.

The side effects are those experienced by ciggender people having their hormone systems shut down.
This makes absolutely no sense. So the drug has side effects on both men and women taking it, but only if they are not trans? If they are trans it doesn't?
I don't think bone thinning is a symptom of dysphoria.