Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

I take issue to being called extreme too!

Your views are extreme. You support the loss of being able to insist on a female only carer. You support the rights of a cross dresser to be in the same changing room as my young daughter. You support rapists in women's prisons and hostels. You support the idea that women should put men's feelings first. What's not extreme about those views?

perfectly

I do understand how one can feel fiercely protective and supportive of some transwomen. And I acknowledge, of course, that some are vulnerable.

As are many women.

(One of the reasons a third space would be ideal. It affords a level of protection to both transwomen and women.)

So I can appreciate the reasons why you may have been supportive without question.

If you do understand our point, (which I think you might be beginning to), that would be very good news.

I do know that you can loosely divide trans people into two. Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP).

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I'm glad someone has mentioned this. In general the homosexual transsexuals are thought to be harmless. Most people seem to have sympathy for them and don't mind them in their changing room.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't agree with this at all. Although the motivation is different both types of men are happy to gaslight women and both are happy to intrude on women's privacy. Personally I'm no more willing to give up my privacy for a gay man than I am a man with Agp.

Why did we ever tolerate the homosexuals claiming to be women?

Why did we ever tolerate the homosexuals claiming to be women?

Exactly - Lily Madigan, Paris Lees - I find it offensive they claim to be one of my kind and to be able to speak from our perspective.

Datun I see your point I really do. It just leans towards the majority of trans people being TRAs and I see with my own eyes the majority of them being harmless so we're never going to agree.

There is an awful lot of brush-tarring isn't there. The moment a trans person does anything assertive they become a "TRA". We can then know that they agree with everything said or done by the extremer TRAs.

So when the government invites trans people to give evidence or opinions on this or that policy, the ones who turn up prove themselves to be TRAs. We can then know that the specific individuals the government are speaking to, as TRAs, will have ‘loved’ the violence at speakers corner, are mysoginists, are AGP, and lots of other things.

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

The moment a trans person does anything assertive they become a "TRA"

Can you give some examples of this assertiveness? What rights do they want that they don't currently have? I don't understand why they are consulted on policys like education or women's policys anyway. They are simply men with a particular sexual orientation.

Well, whatever you think about this issue, I assume we can all agree that this is not OK?

JAPAB

There aren’t any grey areas to this. You either think men should be treated as women or you don’t. And by treated as women, I mean access to women’s spaces/rights/positions. No one cares if they want to look like women. Or even about pronouns. If it was just about pronouns.

No one cared when access was a courtesy, either.

When it becomes entitlement, it’s an entirely different matter.

I can’t see any other assertion which might be referring to.

BertrandRusell 100% agree. Vile Tweet with the sole purpose of spreading hate. Definitely should have been deleted.

So we are believing that men who put a dress on automatically transform into women? Wow. That's some magic right there.

I hate social media. I don't agree with the tweet (" there is no such thing as a trans woman" well obviously there is, duh). But that seems substantially less hateful than the rape/death threats tweeted at women every day, the use of "cis scum". So much double standards.

[bangs head against a wall] maybe if you stopped calling them men in dresses they might stop calling you transphobic scum?

Hi perfectly I haven't commented so far as it took me so long to read the thread.

I am really hoping you are being sarcastic with your last comment! That tweet is Biology 101. It is basic science. It is what we have known and learnt and been taught according to scientific discovery. Biology is not a spectrum. Gender can be considered a spectrum, so put yourself wherever you fancy on that, but telling people that saying male =/= female is hate speech is Orwellian.

there is no such thing as a trans woman" well obviously there is, duh

Well no, there isn't is there. It's simply a man who dresses like a woman. If a man chooses to have their penis removed, they are still a man, just without a penis. They are not a woman. No amount of hormones actually makes them a woman, ever.

Aaaagh sorry I didn't mean the 'trans woman' comment - that is not true at all, and I am not sticking up for that section. I meant the other part. As you were.

maybe if you stopped calling them men in dresses they might stop calling you transphobic scum?

They are men in dresses. That is literally what they are.

I don't call "them" men in dresses. The only time I refer to men in dresses is when I talk about predatory MEN wearing women's clothes to get into women's space. And then I am actually talking about men in dresses not trans women.
However i still get called TERF, transphobe and cis, for 1) being female (that makes me cis regardless of my lack of gender identity, and labelling others against tgeir will is fine apparently) and 2) I talk about trans women being male. Which is a biological fact.

Women get threats in Twitter all the time just for daring to tweet

QuentinSummers I definitely think that the TRA's are losing ground on other platforms that's why they're moving here. There's still support for Paris Lees but its diminishing from a few months ago. It's moving from 'yay, you go girl' to 'What on earth are you on about you vapid twonk' people who just wanted to be kind/do the right thing are definitely moving towards critical thought, even the politicians!

Well no, there isn't is there. It's simply a man who dresses like a woman. If a man chooses to have their penis removed, they are still a man, just without a penis. They are not a woman. No amount of hormones actually makes them a woman, ever.

What I meant was men who identify as women exist. They call themselves trans woman and are colloquially known as trans women.
I know what the tweeter was trying to do but unfortunately it plays directly into "transphobes don't want trans women to EXIST" argument.
You can argue about whether or not to use the label trans women but it doesn't mean that category of people don't exist.

That person knows that men calling themselves transwomen exist, obviously.

What they are saying is that the word woman is wrong.

Transsexual is far more accurate a description. If someone has had surgery to look like the opposite sex.

Flying off the handle over perceived hate is just dramatic self indulgence.

It’s not hate. It’s the entire basis on which the ideology rests. If you can’t acknowledge it, you can’t talk about it.

If someone says I am a woman and need access to women’s spaces/positions/rights, any rebuttal has to include no you’re not.

It’s a strategic move to decide that is hate speech. Its blatant and obvious and everyone can see it. There is nothing subtle about deciding that the very basis of your argument can not be mentioned.

You can argue about whether or not to use the label trans women but it doesn't mean that category of people don't exist.

That category of people do indeed exist, but that does not make them anything other than people who think they are something that they are not. Which in any other aspect is a mental health disorder.

That category of people do indeed exist, but that does not make them anything other than people who think they are something that they are not. Which in any other aspect is a mental health disorder.

You have to ask yourself why this has happened. Transsexuals never claimed they were actually women. Fetishists cross dressers confined their fetish to the community. An unwritten rule that you didn’t force it on people in public.

This shift to deciding that biology is determined by your brain and that transwomen are women as a result is something new.

And it’s the latter cohort who are responsible for it.

The compulsion is exceptionally strong. You only have to read the narratives from wives and partners on this very site to realise that.

Perhaps it goes hand-in-hand with a new generation who have more of a sense of entitlement.

Or fewer rules around convention.

It allows people to demand rights over the most ridiculous things.

Things which would never have been given rights. No one, in their right mind, would have thought that the government was considering legislation to legitimise a fetish.

The fact that there is a group of men with gender dysphoria for whom it would benefit, is immaterial. The people driving this new concept that you can be a woman in your head, but a man in your body, are the fetishists.

We had a transwoman on here last year who had been presenting as a woman for the best part of 30 years.

She was articulate, reasonable and very pleasant to talk to. Happy to answer questions.

Presenting as a woman helped her with her gender dysphoria and she was very happy.

She said she was utterly shocked when the GRA allowed her to officially change sex in 2004. She said she was pleased about it, but it wasn’t a driving force for her, at all.

Neither did she consider the questions that were put to her any kind of hate speech.

Funnily enough, as a result, I have no trouble in referring to her as she.

She didn’t use pronouns as any kind of leverage and everyone felt as though they were on the same page.

The moment a trans person does anything assertive they become a TRA.

Well, not really. The minute a trans person (or trans ally) supports the extreme trans policy agenda, they become a TRA. Because that's the definition of TRA!

I can think of plenty of assertive trans people who are not TRAs. Nobody could call Miranda Yardley a shrinking violet, for example.

The people driving this new concept that you can be a woman in your head, but a man in your body, are the fetishists.

Yes totally. And it will all come out one day when a whole slew of people sue the NHS for making them infertile and there will be a government enquiry and lessons will be learnt when we are screaming now that this is total insanity.