Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Although it is interesting as there are animals with social roles that could be considered gender roles too, such as wild dogs and lions
www.africanwilddogssp.com/about/facts.htm

My DD says

Thanks for telling me because I didn't know.

Which I think is telling that gender is a social construct made up by people. We are animals after all. V confusing for young people who have no one to ask. SI

Gender roles in animals is interesting. And male penguins sit on the eggs. Are they all trans according to human social conscripts? Obviously not
People are bonkers
And some people are more bonkers than others
And that is not double think

I like the way you think JAPAB - especially the 10.49 post.

If you want to breed rabbits, do you put together two animals of the opposite sex going by objectively observable biological features, or do you not bother looking at the sex organs and just pair two by their observable gendered behaviours?

If it's the second, it's going to involve subjective stereotypes on masculine and feminine behaviours, and there are going to be mistakes because not all female rabbits will act 'girly' and not all male rabbits will be banging their chests and stalking around like rambo. It's going to be luck if you get baby rabbits from that approach.

Thank you for talking sense Datun and Ereshkigal, reading back I can see how my idea would amount to desperate appeasement.

Gynephobia has legs though

perfectly - I like the way you think JAPAB

Arf.

Please expand What specifically do you agree with JAPAB on?

Pencils JAPAB was saying that just because a few trans activists say and do outrageous things it doesn't mean all 'pro trans' people agree with them.

Just like not all Muslims support Isis.

Just like not all feminists hate men.

Etc.

just because a few trans activists say and do outrageous things it doesn't mean all 'pro trans' people agree with them.

True. And they are all terfs in that case.

Mot transsexual people disagree with transactivists. Which makes me wonder quite how so many people justify their support for transactivists demands tbh. Anti-womans rights, and also disagreed with by trans people themselves. But some fall over themselves to justify it all. Weird.

Agreed Datun there is ad hominem attacks from both sides, a lot on this thread have been directed at me! Which detracts from the substance of discussion.

None of your posts about terrible things done by TRAs made me question my position. All it screamed was ‘look! trans people are bad!’ but well thought out, reasoned and logical arguments about vulnerable people having easier access to hormone blockers made me think a lot more. And these are the things we should be discussing and raising with MPs.

just because a few trans activists say and do outrageous things it doesn't mean all 'pro trans' people agree with them.
Which is totally irrelevant to the concern that gender self identification puts women at greater risk from predatory men.
And the concern that healthy gay children are being put on potentially risky medicines that will have a lifelong impact on their fertility and libido due to gender confusion associated with their sexuality.
And the concern that female prisoners are being forced to share space with convicted male rapists.

I have finally finished this thread and the one before! It has taken me three days! Excellent logical argument and cool calm reasoning from the usual suspects

I have little of substance to add but have been cheering you all on. About three days late. I did notice that the chunky document perfectly linked to (which someone else noticed was not proper research more 'google says...') also mentioned how helpful gires had been - and especially in that part where the pink/blue brain stuff was 'explained' the phrase was something like "it has been explained to us that certain hormonal yadda yadda mean that possibly yadda yadda..." - i.e. It has not been explained at all but gires told us to put this sciencey bit in. Or that's how it felt to me.

I wasn't on the FWR talk boards back when Spartacus happened, but when I read the great work being done here, and see the lurkers delurking, I really want to say STILL SPARTACUS ✊🏽

JAPAB was saying that just because a few trans activists say and do outrageous things it doesn't mean all 'pro trans' people agree with them.

The comparison to ISIS is NOT appropriate. They're more like the Tea Party.

What Corbyn's election as Labour leader, Brexit, and Donald Trump have taught us is that you should take the extremes seriously.

Trans activists are being invited by the government to give evidence that would inform government policy. That's pretty important.

None of your posts about terrible things done by TRAs made me question my position

Which I would never bother to point out, if people didn’t tell me it never happened.

It only doesn’t make sense if you think they are outliers.

That they are different from transsexuals, I agree. But the sorts of men who make these ridiculous claims, are the sorts of men who will exploit the law.

I honestly don’t know how many times it has to be said, that most women here do not have a problem with genuine transsexuals. Genuine transsexuals don’t make these claims.

But given it will be precisely these other men who will exploit the law, it needs to be pointed out.

Not just predators, but men who take women’s positions, compete with women over sport. These things are happening.

If they weren’t, no one would bother, nor would it be possible, to point them out.

Exploiting the deception that transwomen are actually women takes all sorts of different forms.

It really has very little to do with respect or acknowledgement of someone’s presentation.

If no one was exploiting it, we could all pack up and go home.

Datun I see your point I really do. It just leans towards the majority of trans people being TRAs and I see with my own eyes the majority of them being harmless so we're never going to agree. Trading insults and promoting war between feminists and trans folk isn't productive.

I agree take extremes seriously but I take issue with what is being called extreme. ISIS are extreme. Being anti-EU or pro-Republican are pretty mainstream positions. TRA supporters think Spartacus is extreme/fascist/phobic. Spartacus just thinks she sees sense. Sorry to sidetrack.

Trans activists are being invited by the government to give evidence that would inform government policy. That's pretty important.

Well quite. The same group who ‘loved’ the violence at speakers corner, demand all trans prisoners are released and that trans people are instructed in surgery so they can operate on each other. (See Action for Trans Health manifesto).

And don’t get me started on GIREs. Husband and wife team. He is an MBA, she is a chiropodist. They don’t have single medical qualification between them. But, nonetheless, actively promoting pink/blue brains. Also advising the government.

Mermaids. The head of which took her son abroad when he was 16 to have genital surgery. As it is illegal here. Ordered to stay away from a family by the court because they were insisting a four-year-old child was trans when he wasn’t. One of their representatives called homosexuality deviant. And on their website they directed people to a doctor who is now under investigation for sterilising a 12-year-old. Also advisors to the government.

Not outliers. Not unrepresentative of the trans ideology. Quite the reverse.

I take issue to being called extreme too! I'm definitely not a TRA but there seems to be a perception on here that I must be because pro trans = extreme trans activism.

Anyway, I had resolved not to get into all this again. Night all

I think it's the other way round Perfectly - you see the majority of trans people like your friends - harmless, struggling being TRAs. But the rest of us think the majority of TRAs are NOT like your friends - the majority are abusive blokes.

We, like you, empathise with your lovely gentle trans friends down the Marlborough, and over the years we have been kind and respectful enough to let your Marlborough friends share our spaces.

Sadly though a fuck-ton of blokes in frocks have falsely claimed to be your friends from the M and demanded the same. And we ain't having it.

You just haven't experienced that fuck-ton of blokes yet.

Perfectly, even if the whole safety issue was removed, and all trans-identifying people were lovely, and Travis Wotsit was quite correctly declared to be a chump who can go do one by TopShop...

I would still have problems with an ideology that tells small children they can choose their sex, at an age when they believe it.

I would still wince at the idea that healthy young teenagers are reading online that their thoughts and preferences make them the opposite sex.

I would still find it gut-wrenching that some teenagers will head down a path to bodily modification and sterilization before they have seen what they really want from life.

I would still want this to be open to debate, and anyone who taglines #nodebate to give their head a wobble.

I see your point I really do. It just leans towards the majority of trans people being TRAs.

Make up your mind, perfectly, do!

If you disagree with the TRA position and agree with the quiet life transsexual position, why are you on here advocating for the TRA agenda? You know - self-ID, TIMs are actual women, etc etc.

Why aren't you saying that you agree with Miranda or Kristina or Hope or Debbie? Or, for that matter, all the women on here?

Please - pick a position and stick to it. Because then we can have a genuine discussion with you.

perfectly

I have no real idea how many TRAs make up the cohort of trans.

I do know that you can loosely divide trans people into two. Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP).

The former are the ones who have always shared our bathrooms. Most women do not have a problem with them, as they don’t tend to be transactivists.

The latter are dominant, sexually motivated and misogynistic.

They are the ones who are presenting the problem. The former are trying to distance themselves from the latter, for obvious reasons.

But given trans people make up a minuscule number of people, I’m not prepared to accept a law which legitimises the latter cohort at the expense of all women. Which will also open the doors to predators who are not trans.

That’s what we mean when we say genuine transsexuals are also being damaged by this ideology.

And that’s before you even start with the latter’s determination to recruit children to the cause and a deliberate attempt to erase biology from the concept of woman.

There are just far, far too many men who are leaping at this ideology. Men supporting it who aren’t even trans. Because it really does push women further and further back down the pecking order. In all sorts of ways.

I take issue to being called extreme too! I'm definitely not a TRA but there seems to be a perception on here that I must be because pro trans = extreme trans activism.

But you keep saying you support the extreme TRA policy agenda. That's why we think you're a trans ideology extremist! You can't support self-ID and assert that TIMs are actual women again and again over thousands of posts on here and not have people think that!

I mean, if you've changed your mind and now don't support self-ID and also no longer think that transwomen are actual women, do say that! We'll all cheer!

"a lot on this thread have been directed at me!"

Says the woman who invoked the Nazis against her "opponents".........