Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

I like it too. So I just looked up the etymology.

“Outside medicine, the term means "the science of women". ”

I love it now!

And sexism is often the basis for false equivalence and 'what about men?' args.

Off on a tangent but just looking up the wiki entries for gynophobia and misogyny and came across reference to the Pandora myth, and it struck me how huge a parallel there is between that and the story of The Fall.

In both cases the woman disobeys the god(s)' command not to open the jar (not a box, apparently!) or eat of the forbidden fruit, and thus brings calamity upon the human race, which up until that point existed in perfect harmony.

It's all there, isn't it? The fundamental scapegoating. The womb envy, envy of those who actually bring forth life. The need for bullies and abusers to blame those they bully and abuse so as not to call into question their own (lack of) humanity. The quite breathtaking feat of projection, when it is routinely men who start wars and destroy life, to blame the ills of the world on women.

These attitudes are entirely woven into our culture; they are part of the foundation of our culture. And they play out again and again, still playing out now. People ignore this very real fact, that our society is absolutely based on hate for women, on men justifying their abuse of women by saying that women are inherently sinful/guilty/lesser beings.

People are ignoring this fact, this context now, in the case of transactivism. I had never seen the depth and extent of misogyny displayed so nakedly even in our liberal, "progressive" world till the "trans rights" movement. It's clear to me that it's the same age-old, thousand-layers-deep misogyny as always which, when you stamp it out in one area, will just find a new one in which to rear its ugly head, and will keep doing so until you tackle the root of the problem.

Have perfectly/debbie been hit with the ban-hammer do you think?

Wow Talking - that's given me a whole lot to think about!

Absolutely agree. I'd never realised the depth and severity of modern misogyny until the really ugly underbelly of TRA emerged.

QuentinSummers

Nope

You are right Talking.
My theory is that with women having so much useful stuff to be getting on with - what with bearing and raising young, that males were a bit sidelined and had too much time with nothing to do - and the 'devil made work for idle hands' ...
i'd like to hear a creation myth from the perspective of the child bearers, explaining 'the fall' rather than the penis wagglers - they must have existed.

Guardian If you haven't read it, The Red Tent is a very interesting look at the early days of Abrahamic religion and women kind of handing them cups of tea, disappearing into the tent and continuing a rather different form of faith.

The stories of Prometheus and Eve have some interesting similarities. Both angered the gods by bringing forbidden knowledge to humanity. Both were severely punished for the transgression. But Prometheus was viewed as a cultural hero by the ancient Greeks, and Eve is seen as being responsible for the downfall and suffering of humanity. Come to think if it, you could say the same of Prometheus and Pandora.

Talking, your (very interesting) post just reminded me of something I was reading a few weeks ago about women being blamed for man's downfall. I'll just link it in case anyone is interested.

witchyfeminist.weebly.com/home/malicious-women-woman-as-the-downfall-of-mankind

In Greek mythology, Hera is the goddess of childbearing and yet she is often portrayed as jealous and unreasonable. I wish we knew more about the way women viewed her. I think it would be interesting.

sparkley I have heard a lot of references to the red tent but haven't read it. Maybe i'll take a look over crimbo.
ISay I think Hestia is Hera's sister isn't she (?) I remember that she is both childless and single to devote herself to being the Goddess of home, hearth and family. I thought of her as being the radical lesbian feminist aunt who watches over everyone's wellbeing and makes sure Zeus gets fuck if he thinks he's going to mess up the family

MentholBreeze Do you really think that women here choose what they think based on which side 'baddies' and 'goodies' are?

I expect few, if any, did. So they should probably not expect this of trans allies either.

I expect few, if any, did. So they should probably not expect this of trans allies either.

The women here pick reason and logic. It’s not unbelievable expect other people to do likewise.

I love gynophobia but wonder if should be spelt gynephobia.

I agree sexism can come across as a bit light-weight and silly. If misogyny is proving less than useful we could go with woman-hating which is straightforward, although if we can't define woman maybe female-hatred - although that loses the human element.

I am so angry that there is no longer a word for us that encompasses both our femaleness and our humanity

I was thinking on the bus earlier that maybe we should just say fuck it and campaign for the rights of AFAB (hear me out) - in my head this includes women and girls, transmen and transboys and also the tiny number of intersex people who genuinely are AFAB.

I know AFAB is dodgy newspeak for actual female people but we need shared vocabulary if we are to have a productive debate and they've taken all the other words and left us with this as the closest term to the group feminism women's liberation fights for.

Or maybe this is too much of a concession. Dunno.

On the fascinating tangent - I have a possibly daft theory that the Eve and Pandora myths are metaphors (allegories?) for working out sexual reproduction and thus fatherhood (which would have led to patriarchy and the origins of farming).

I know what you mean about AFAB. Because at least we get to talk about it.

But I’m not doing it. Partly because they will go after AFAB next (in fact, they already are).

But, more importantly, because it buys into whole assigned nonsense.

Not doing it. No longer giving the inch that, oh so swiftly, turns into a mile.

Besides. It makes a distinction between female and woman. When there is none.

Agree. We can't afford to concede.

I just want to reclaim the name 'women' (wimmin/wombyn), push back and let males be creative and come up with their own word.

As Talking said, it is age old misogyny rooted in obsession, envy and resentment about our bodies and reproductive role - so males will always try to colonise our womanhood - and feminists need to play misogyny whack-a-mole, pushing back to make sure we don't lose ground.

I can imagine AGPs in a world where we describe ourselves as AFAB having a good old wank over themselves in a role as a degraded AFAB and give even that clunky term a pervy ring ....

We absolutely need to stop calling them women except when it's entirely unavoidable in a job situation etc.

I just want to reclaim the name 'women' (wimmin/wombyn), push back and let males be creative and come up with their own word.

Or we could change to something that sounds really daft when paired with trans. I'm torn between sisters or formers.

irretating

I really like gynephobia. I think people should start chucking it around like they do 'transphobia' and see what happens.

So whenever someone in these right on Momentum type places on Twitter says anything vaguely sexist or misogynist, especially when talking about gender (which would be a lot) people should plop in and say 'oh my god what you just said is sooooo gynephobic' and watch them squirm at being told the are any sort of a 'phobe'.

I do think people should start using 'gynephobia' rather than misogyny, which is now being used by people who are not women, or sexism, which doesn't seem strong enough.

Am delurking
Sorry to derail from what you're talking about but my DD has a question about sex and gender. So

If animals could understand the word gender and the word sex, which one would they use? :)

Quite a pertinent question? Or not?

They would use sex.