Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Come on perfectly. Try a bit harder.

Your arguments are 6th form debating club level. And evasive and dishonest.

You have only one thing that you need to convince gender critical people of. One thing. It should be easy.

That one thing is to convincingly argue that transwomen are female. That's it.

But you haven't even tried. Because you know it's bullshit and you will look like a fool if you try. The rest of your argument is an irrelevant house of cards if you cannot demonstrate why transwomen are female.

And not only can you not demonstrate the above, you don't actually really believe it.

perfectly equality of the sexes does not mean advocating for the rights of biological males identifying as females does it?

You are tying yourself up in knots.

RogueBiscuit I wish you well in you your trans exclusionary endeavours

It's not going to be an endeaver. I'll continue to ensure that strange men can't access my partially dressed little girl, and that my mum maintains her right to have a female carer.

I am a sucker for stylecraft and expensive hand dyed wool
My family have asked for no more knitted Christmas presents

I'm getting xmas tree light knots rage just thinking about this.

Perhaps I should go on twitter?

Every time I see a display of xmas lights. I get breathless. I need some form of go fund me to take me to these shops and to take me home.

Yup LangCleg: equality of the sexes. It's very hard to debate with those who cannot distinguish between gender and sex or between biology and feelings.

Yes, perfectly, it is, isn't it?!

Sex = material reality.

Gender = patriarchal imposition of unequal social roles (to me) and/or subjective metaphysical feelings (to you).

Insofar as I can see, I am being perfectly clear! My feminism is about equality of the sexes. The definition of feminism you posted was also about equality of the sexes. And I wholeheartedly agree with you - it is very tricky debating with those who cannot distinguish between gender and sex or between biology and feelings. Thank heavens, therefore, I am entirely able to distinguish between these things. If you need any help with it, do ask!

quentin - yep, me. I love knitting! At the moment, I am buying up bulk lots of double knitting from eBay in those variegated colour schemes, and making scarves and hats.

Oooh love an eBay bulk buy!

I'm currently knitting Christmas bunting!

Ooh sounds nice! I want to make some handwarmers but busy with a sweater first

I'm currently knitting Christmas bunting!

You know what you were saying about not fitting in here, this right here is proof that you have found your home.

irretating

I wish you well in you your trans exclusionary endeavours.

Except, as you very well know, this is nothing to do with being trans exclusionary.
It is to do with women resisting male intrusion and gaslighting.

I hope you are an MRA troll.

If you are a woman, please, grow up.

Teensy weensy point, but feminism has nothing to do with equality. That's a wishy washy description of it.

What feminism actually is a political movement that aims for liberation for women from patriarchy.

What trans*activism aims to do is solidify and more deeply codify the specific gender roles and trappings that are imposed on women under patriarchy in order to stall that liberation. In order to raise women's consciousness, we need to be able to describe our oppressors and the reasons why we, as women are oppressed.

When 'woman' becomes a suit of clothes to be put on and taken off at will instead of what woman actually means, then we lose the ability to describe ourselves and our oppression. Women are oppressed because of our biological realities, that we have spent our lives being expected to, or to able to, or to have been able to bear children for men. You can't identify into that reality, you can only ever be a simulacrum of it.

Feminism has fought to have consent recognised legally within and without marriage. I don't understand how anyone can on the one hand pay lip service to feminism and on the other actively encourage the negation of women's consent to share space with the male bodied. That's not feminism at all!

perfectly

Feminism is liberation from oppression (of men).

It will achieve equality of the sexes. It’s not the goal.

Otherwise we would be advocating for two men a week to be killed by their partners, 117 million boy babies to be killed before they are born, their genitals being mutilated so they don’t enjoy sex, to be killed if they marry outside their religion, etc.

Because that would be equality.

To liberate women from that?

That would be called feminism.

In fact, it’s feminism 101.

I think I might learn to knit. It sounds very soothing.

It is Datun the needles are also very pointy.

I can crochet as well...

... it's as close as I get to anything feminine!

It's funny how much of this ideology reminds me of an abusive relationship. I think many of us have had experience of being accused of not being kind and caring enough. It's an abusers tactic frankly.

Yes to this. Nail on head RogueBiscuit, you are so right.
You have totally put into words why it doesn't work on many of us. We've seen it before and we know what it is.

Also explains, sadly, why it works on many.

Maybe we should abandon the word 'feminism' and go back to 'women's liberation'.

'Feminism' has become just another identity we are shamed into respecting even while a fuckton of people, male and female, who 'identify' as feminist are anything but.

'Women's Liberation' otoh is immediately recognisable as a political movement and as such is permitted to define what it stands for. You can agree or disagree with it but you can argue about its principles and aims without being silenced because someone is upset.

I’d second that pencils.

Nice and straightforward. Easily understood. Can’t be appropriated.

I think women's lib is an excellent term. The whole "equality" thing is used as a "gotcha" by all the blokes who pop on to my facebook to tell me I am wrong about feminism.

interestingly it usually transpires that they are wrong.

On Agatha Christie; did anyone see Kenneth Branagh say something like "people generally think she's a second rate writer but..." when he was promoting his fancy new (Poirot) film?

Whatever it was, I howled FUCKING DO THEY NOW KENNETH grimaced, because would he say that about any bloke crimewriter from the 20th C? I actually think not.

Crochet is far superior to knitting.

Pencils, I agree.

I dislike the label feminist. It carries negative connotations with it, and I think it somewhat self limiting.

I don't term myself as a feminist, but I probably am but others standards.

It needs a rebrand to give it new life.

Some biological males have genuinely been born into the wrong body and therefore identify as female.
Not genuinely, no, but they do claim to believe that they have.
I am a member of the reality based community, so I do not think that I am committing an act of cannibalism when I take communion, nor do I think whatever a biological male tells me to think.

It’s unapologetic about being liberated from oppression. Which is something of a dirty word in this day and age.

This whole equality business does not name the problem.

It feels almost daring and a bit impolite to point out the source of women’s disadvantage being men. And the infrastructure that has been built and maintained to accommodate them, often at women’s expense.

But if this transgender malarkey has taught me anything, it’s quite how much women need to be liberated. How tenuous our gains are. How little power we have.

So yeah, I’ll hang my hat on the women’s libber hook.

(I can feel myself coming over all June Whitfield).