Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Still 1.5k posts and people refer to transgender as a male delusion, a sexual fetish, a mental illness, something that needs to be cured... exactly what people were saying about the gays 50 years ago.
Now the homophobes have found the solution to the "homosexuality problem" in transitioning away the gay.
We thought we were moving toward liberation and now the male dominance backlash is devastating women in ways we never imagined.

Another vote for reviving women's liberation.

I also think we should use sexism instead of misogyny as much as possible. With sexism, it's clear what we mean. Misogyny is another word that's been hijacked by the "women as identity" crew.

Yup, we need to start using the words "sex", "sexism", "sex discrimination", "women's liberation" again.

I hate to put a dampener on it - but just like 'transmisogyny' there is 'cissexism', transfeminism.... it'll only take a couple of seconds to become 'transwomen's liberation'...

Men say all the time that Feminism is about equality. Nope.
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
One of my favorite quotes illustrates why the backlash chose equality as the bludgeon to beat Feminism into submission:
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

PricklyBall

I’ve thought this before. About the words used in feminism. And how women are reluctant to wrap everything up sweetly and make it more palatable or easier to hear. Which I totally understand, of course.

But ‘liberation from oppression under patriarchy’ does occasionally get an eyeball roll in my experience.

Liberation is good. Does what it says. Sexism. Yes. And I sometimes use male chauvinism instead of patriarchy.

Chauvinism is in instantly recognisable word. And although not an exact synonym, it does often get the point across without your listener’s eyes disappearing into the back of their head.

I’m sure those words will be appropriated, like all the others, at some point. But, in the meantime, perhaps a slight change in language could be beneficial.

I am old enough to remember when Women's Lib became a toxic brand. It was largely ridicule that killed it
but the misogynist press at the time was mind blowing. And there is nothing new about violence and death threats......

This article is interesting. Coincidently, it seems to encapsulate much of this thread and the dissent voiced.

Many women are so wedded to the notion of being ‘nice girls’ questioning is internalised as intolerance and thoughts are policed. We might be fighting for all women, but we must remember, we don’t yet speak with one voice.

Trans arguments are illogical and flimsy, they inspire a cult-like belief that can be easily punctured by simply stating reality. Reaching out to other women and raising their consciouness is central to this.

www.criticalsisters.co.uk/blog/286/

Good article Datun.

I can always sense the "aha! I got you to admit you don't care" vibe coming from these people. As though it's the worst thing in the world. I found it really difficult when I wrote to my mp, I felt I ought to do the simpering about caring and supporting transwomen before I could get to the point. I don't think men feel they have to do this.

I'm done pretending to give a toss about any of it, not my circus, not my monkeys. It really makes me think about how much you don't care is a tool to whip women with.

The sheer arrogance that I should spend my time fighting for the rights of men (that I don't know) makes my blood boil.

One of the most frustrating things about the equality backlash argument against Feminism centering and prioritizing women's liberation is that it targets the empathetic women, just like abusers do.

It does, it absolutely does.

And I can’t help feeling that perfectlys attitude comes from knowing a bunch of nice transwomen.

No-one who is subjected to the misogyny of transactivists would talk like her.

Because her argument fell apart every step of the way and was reduced to a plea for kindness.

Understanding feminism is a pretty effective method of using checks and balances to the argument of kindness. Because what woman doesn’t want to be kind?

It’s nice to be nice!

But as rogue says, there is the distinct point where the request for kindness is suddenly recognised as manipulative. It’s unmistakable.

I’ve also been thinking about the word misogyny. Sometimes there is no other word. Sexism is simply too mild.

And this ideology is a misogyny magnet. The idea of a pink brain and a blue brain is the basis. You might just get away with calling that sexist. But many of the people it attracts absolutely hate women. Misogyny is the only word.

I don’t believe any trans allies would remain as such, if they were more exposed to that side of it.

Although, having said that the number of men who managed to dismiss the MeToo campaign was shocking. And rather heartbreaking actually.

It really makes me think about how much you don't care is a tool to whip women with

This

And 'if you don't care about my feelings that means there's something wrong and pathological about you'

And 'if you don't care about my feelings that means there's something wrong and pathological about you....'

'....But if you expect me to care about your feelings you're being unreasonable.'

Datun I don’t believe any trans allies would remain as such, if they were more exposed to that side of it.

Some people don't tar everyone with the same brush. And are also familiar with things such as the ad hominem fallacy.

Topics like immigration, certain cultural practices, male circumcision, also attract their fair share of racists, anti-Semitics, and others of dubious motives.

But the rational person isn't going to think along the lines of: some people who oppose cultural practise X are racist. So I am going to support X instead. Immigration opposition is the sort of thing that attracts racists, therefore I am going to support unfettered mass immigration myself.

Similarly they won't think along the lines of: Some people on the pro-trans side say awful things about those on the other side, in anonymous internet forums. Therefore I am going to tar all with the same brush and assume that the specific trans people involved in, say, a campaign to generalise language relating to pregnancy in formal medical situations, also personally say and think these awful things. Therefore I must conclude the aim of this campaign is wrong and no longer support it.

Basically, some people are not going to be deterred from what they believe is the right side of a fence, because they share it with dodgy folk.

Basically, some people are not going to be deterred from what they believe is the right side of a fence, because they share it with dodgy folk.

Missing the point JAPAB.

The ‘dodgy folk’, of which you speak do not share any side of the fence with reasonable people.

They are, at best, ignored by reasonable people. Hence this entire thread.

Unless you think it’s reasonable to condone violence and rape threats. Or that any reasonable person would do that.

I believe the confusion arises precisely because many reasonable people don’t realise the extent of the dodgy ones.

It’s a number that is difficult to determine. The only way you acquire feeling for it is when you deliberately expose yourself to it.

Therefore I am going to tar all with the same brush and assume that the specific trans people involved in, say, a campaign to generalise language relating to pregnancy in formal medical situations, also personally say and think these awful things. Therefore I must conclude the aim of this campaign is wrong and no longer support it.

No, no no. You don't know what you're talking about. Quelle surprise! "a campaign to generalise language relating to pregnancy in formal medical situations" is foolishly misguided in my opinion but I believe a) that it is well meant by most people, but also b) that it is wrong and harmful in and of itself because it is about female erasure. That's why I wouldn't support it. The fact that misogynists also do and take full advantage to push their agenda is hardly surprising.

Therefore I must conclude the aim of this campaign is wrong and no longer support it.

JAPAB, you've been here a long time. Do you really think that women here choose what they think based on which side 'baddies' and 'goodies' are? Or do you think that we sit down and talk through the issues and come to our own conclusions?

And what do you think TAs do?

How about the TA supporters (the ones with the TERF blocklists)

You can argue all the day long day that calling a woman a pregnant person is helping transmen. But there have only been two in the entire country.

It’s absolutely not reasonable to change language to accommodate two people. Of course, you can do it on a case by case basis. Absolutely. It’s entirely ludicrous to make an issue of the language in general.

It’s not being pushed by women identifying as men. All two of them.

It’s being being pushed by men identifying as women to eliminate as many biological differences as they can.

Have been following both these threads and cheering on all my fellow Spartaci, as always. The main contribution I wanted to make was not one that would have been tolerated by talk guidelines, so I've been sitting on my hands instead. But I have SO appreciated all the wonderful, well-reasoned, articulate GC posts.

Beachcomber haven't seen you around these parts for a while, maybe I've just missed your posts, anyway it's very good to hear your brilliantly clear voice again!

Re sexism/misogyny I think misogyny is an important word because what we're dealing with is genuinely hate. Male hatred of the female. And internalised misogyny which is so prevalent and does so, so much damage. How can anyone be immune to the effects of six thousand years of collective unconscious thought in every culture worldwide?

This is what women like perfectly miss, along with the more obvious immediate impact of being brought up male in a society that is still now profoundly sexist and misogynist, when they say that transwomen don't have male privilege. They completely miss the impact on the each individual's unconscious of deeply embedded cultural attitudes held by the population in general.

Also seen someone on Twitter using the word "gynophobia", which I like.

Also seen someone on Twitter using the word "gynophobia", which I like

Yes it seems to describe the irrational fear of intelligent, articulate women with a truthful point to make - seeing them as frightful bogey(wo)men who need to be eradicated like malevolent zombies.
That's what I think when people use the word TERF.

Basically, some people are not going to be deterred from what they believe is the right side of a fence, because they share it with dodgy folk.

1.5 thousand posts and people still choose to put Romany women and lesbians on the same side of the fence as the fascists who would exterminate them at the first chance.

Re sexism/misogyny I think misogyny is an important word because what we're dealing with is genuinely hate. Male hatred of the female. And internalised misogyny which is so prevalent and does so, so much damage. How can anyone be immune to the effects of six thousand years of collective unconscious thought in every culture worldwide?

It is. I think "sexism" is thought of as somewhat trivial and comical, like saying women are bad drivers etc.

Also like gynophobia which is I think very accurate.