Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Peace out

I think you have moved forward a bit perfectly- although you believe that transwomen should be treated as women and this is more important than women's rights, you no longer maintain that any resistance to or non-acceptance of your position is 'transphobia'.

Anyway I hope you might pause before calling women TERFs, or feeling outraged that you might be addressed in an open letter about it in future.

Have a lovely evening.

perfectly

Why should Rogue, or any feminist, have to constantly say they care about men. It’s kind of the point of feminism that they centre women. And the point of centering women is because men disadvantage women. Again, not some nebulous entity that we can’t identify. Men.

Many women on here are married, have sons. Are in love with, and love men. It doesn’t prevent them from seeing the structural oppression that women are under.

Or naming the people who are responsible for it.

Cats? Perhaps special snowflakes will think they are a cat and strut around purring?

Already happening.

Semi-retired trans lesbian kitten.

Already happening

Of course. Who can forget Brian/Katie?

RogueBiscuit said: I actually feel obligated to state how I would fight for transwomen or that I care about their safety or other such rubbish. The truth is I don't give a toss about it

If you stand by that statement then you are trans exclusionary. If that’s your position then own it but don’t expect it not to appear horrifying to the world outside of Mumsnet or expect feminists like me to ever support you or let you go unchallenged.

Thanks Guardian and hope you have a lovely evening too.

Still here *Perfectly? Perhaps while I catch up on the thread you could answer some of my questions which you still haven't.

1. What do you think feminism is? What are it's aims?

2. What do you think feminism has already achieved?

3. What do you think think feminism still has to achieve?

If you stand by that statement then you are trans exclusionary.

If you stand by that statement you are a feminist, as feminists care about women/girls and transwomen are men.

The "transwomen are women" mantra is two things:

1. a "big lie" propaganda technique. Nobody actually believes it. Including TRAs.

2. a very good example of an assertion that mistakes ambition for capability.

You left off some important bits from RogueBiscuit's comment, perfectly:

The expectation that I should be kind because I am a woman really grates my cheese. I actually feel obligated to state how I would fight for transwomen or that I care about their safety or other such rubbish. The truth is I don't give a toss about it and I'm tired of the expectation that it's my job as a woman to be caring and compassionate to any body who demands it.

Women are expected to care about and take care of everyone except themselves and their needs. This is another thing feminists have been pointing out. That's what RogueBiscuit was talking about, there. Not throwing trans women under the bus.

Surprisingly enough, women are human beings who do not actually owe anyone and everyone their energy, time and concern.

Thank you for admitting you don't give a toss about trans women and will happily throw them under a bus, I think that's my point proven

You're welcome.
And thank you for attempting to shame me for not being kind and compassionate to strange men, you've proved my point. The sexism you display is astonishing. Do you expect men to be caring and compassionate, or just women?

I'll maintain I don't give a shit about them and I'm not ashamed to say so.I don't give a shit about global warming, the plight of bees, or god either. I do care about my kids, my terminally ill parent, homeless people and disabled people. Oh, and women. Obviously.

I think it's each person's right to decide what they do and don't give a shit about. Men with a fetish are not on my radar and there's no reason to pretend otherwise.

It's funny how much of this ideology reminds me of an abusive relationship. I think many of us have had experience of being accused of not being kind and caring enough. It's an abusers tactic frankly.

WTAF we've been over this a million times. Feminism means equality for everyone. This is what comes up on Google:

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes

In no way does that mean, 'The advocacy of women's rights as bad men are dressing up in frocks pretending to be women and we're really pissed off about it and we want to ban anyone born biologically male as identifying as female. Who gives a shit that trans people are negatively affected by our campaign because we only care about women born with XX chromosomes'

RogueBiscuit said: I actually feel obligated to state how I would fight for transwomen or that I care about their safety or other such rubbish. The truth is I don't give a toss about it

If you stand by that statement then you are trans exclusionary. If that’s your position then own it but don’t expect it not to appear horrifying to the world outside of Mumsnet or expect feminists like me to ever support you or let you go unchallenged.

Then I am trans exclusionary and I'm ok with that. Challenge away. I'm intrigued though by what it is exactly you intend to challenge me about? The lack of caring?

RogueBiscuit what's the point as we're speaking different languages.
I wish you well in you your trans exclusionary endeavours.

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes

Yes, perfectly. Equality of the SEXES. That's women and TIFs/transmen. Sexes being the operative word, you see.

You can concentrate on the fight for equality for males who are gender nonconforming if you like, perfectly. An admirable mission. Just not a feminist one. And you'd be better off arguing with the gender conforming men (who are the ones beating them up and all the rest of it) about it, not women.

Goad goad zzzzzz

Although I'm glad I came back to read langclegs post. I'd forgotten about the Big Lie. Favoured topic of Donald Trump.

Anyway today I went shopping and got baffled by the large range of jellies, pickles, chimneys etc to go with cheese. Can anyone recommend me a really good one for my brothers Xmas? I quite fancied rhubarb and Muscat but wasn't sure if it would be grim.

Lang equality is the key word, not fighting for women to oppress another marginalised group.
In no way should feminism harm anyone else, even men!

Quentin rhubarb and muscat sounds different, I say give it a try you might surprise yourself!

lang was it you who did knitting? What's your favourite yarn?

Yup LangCleg: equality of the sexes. It's very hard to debate with those who cannot distinguish between gender and sex or between biology and feelings.

I know a lot of posters believe it is worthwhile continuing the debate against all the odds as it can bring lurkers to a peak trans moment but I keep thinking as far as persuading Perfectly and Debbie to understand how women and children will be collateral damage of this bizarre and terminally stupid proposal to redraw the GRA, well, we might as well try and pin jelly to the wall.

This reply - If you stand by that statement then you are trans exclusionary

Hang about - do you really expect women to spend all their time fretting about the feelings of men who invade our privacy? That is just crackers TBH. They aren't arsed about us. Oh yeah, we're supposed to be nice, self-effacing and submissive.

I really do need to get off this thread now for my own sanity but if anyone fancies that drink at the Marlborough then DM me

not fighting for women to oppress another marginalised group.

perfectly I feel like retracting my wish for your lovely evening when you appropriate the very language of feminists to suit your male-centred priorities.... it smells very MRA to me...

Heads up - women/feminists don't oppress males (irrespective of how they identify) - the societal structures are not in place to make that possible. However TRAs/MRAs are trying to use trans assumed 'rights' to erode women's right to defend and protect ourselves from oppression by male domination.

You had to google something you claim to identify as perfectly

And you didn't even answer my 2nd and 3rd questions.

So I'm out discussing this with you.

If you want a debate I suggest you email your MP and suggest that they arrange for this to be properly debated, with everyone given a space at the table including the actual feminists, the MRA's purporting to be feminists and anybody who's actually advocating for transsexuals in a way that isn't completely and utterly batshit. They must be cringing at what the ATH are saying and doing in their name.

Please also ask your MP to advocate for research to be done into ROGD, de transitioning and WTAF is a pink and blue brain so that everybody can move forward.

Quentin Chimney's with Cheese, I never have chimneys with cheese, am I not ready for Christmas?

And knitting! I love knitting, who knew knitting, loving agatha Christie and being veggie all qualified me for the feminist board

Quentin I like knitting in cotton, also quite a fan of the t-shirt yarn, what about you?