Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

As clear as mud irretating.

And the actual basis on which the equality law is written.

Rather than going to the formerly lesbian Marlborough to meet for a drink, how about going to a former mixed LGBT -friendly pub that is now a lesbian friendly, woman-only bar?

Anyone know of any?

Do they exist?

If not, why not?

Slightly off topic but this has peaked my interest regarding identity and physical imperfections.

It's about being taller. And this procedure was for those of short stature that was borderline. Now I'd love to be a six foot amazonian. I'm not though. Nor do I have the perfect body. I am me and I have to live with that.

Sorry. It's a Mail link, but it's a good report.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2080771/Would-spend-34-000-3-INCHES-taller-Thomas-Keeper-thigh-bone-sawn-half-spent-months-hobbling-frame.html

GuardianLions

There's always Vanilla in Manchester. NOT!

www.vanillagirls.co.uk/

Nice one Blanche I was getting a bit lonely down the Marlborough on my own

1. As mentioned previously, I went to college with a MTF transsexual who had gender reassignment surgery in her early 20s. We were in the same drama club and she used the girls changing room. Even though us girls knew she was trans, in our mind she was a girl. Whenever the changing room argument comes up I think of her, who she hung out with at school (the girls) the way she dressed (female clothes) and then I try to think of making her her go in the boys changing room and I just can't see why we would do that. And I just can't see why a boy would go to all the trouble of pretending to be a girl just to access female changing rooms when there is the whole internet of naked women available to him. It makes no sense.

1. I wouldn't say this thread is 'transphobic' as such, more strongly resistant to accepting transgender women as women.

I wouldn't say this thread is 'transphobic' as such, more strongly resistant to accepting transgender women as women.

To accept transgender women as women, you need a definition of woman that is not adult human female.

Until transactivists and their bullshit, this was unneeded. unfortunately, it is needed now as as has been shown, give an inch, they take a mile.

The MtF transsexual you mention will not benefit at all from self-ID. No transsexual person would.

I'm strongly resistant to accepting that God exists, despite being 'born' a Catholic and having to live with the meme that once a Catholic always a Catholic.

My son has a friend who has long flowing blonde hair and is tall and very slim. He is a he.

I resist the transgender women as women because I'm not convinced. Neither am I convinced that God exists.

I would also be extremely interested to hear how we should be segregating in sex segregated areas, if not by sex. This never does seem to be answered. I wish it was, as I could understand more then. but its avoided like the plague. I know many supporters say they don't think we need sex segregation at all..that view I disagree with but can understand.

Of course we could always just go on as before, sex segregation with an honour system. Seemed to work perfectly well before transactivists decided that male penises existed and that male people actually are female

Perfectly.

If you can convince me that God exists, then I'll accept that trans women are women.

(btw, the identifier transgender women isn't the done thing now)

Something else I find fascinating about this whole topic is that it is actually transsexual women who accept that they are male. It always seems to be 'transgender' women who scream about how biology is totally irrelevant and to acknowledge its existence is transphobic.

I'm not homophobic: but obviously I don't think gay people are straight.
And I'm not transphobic: but obviously I don't think transwomen are women.

And I just can't see why a boy would go to all the trouble of pretending to be a girl just to access female changing rooms when there is the whole internet of naked women available to him. It makes no sense.

It's about power and the sexual charge they get from taking away or ignoring women's right to say no.

There are places on the internet where you can with the help of a webcam, flash your genitals at women, but men still prowl the streets on the off chance a loan woman will walk by so he can pull his willy out and show her. There are men who place camera's in women's changing room, you wonder why when as you say there are many images of naked women on the internet. But it's not about seeing naked women, it's about the power trip.

I wouldn't say this thread is 'transphobic' as such, more strongly resistant to accepting transgender women as women.

That makes me happy perfectly. It would make me so happy if people would say "resistant to accepting transgender women as women" instead of "transphobe" or "transphobia" where it would be more of an accurate description.

Because I hold my hands up - I am extremely resistant to accepting people can change sex and I wouldn't find it inaccurate or a slur to have it pointed out.

And I just can't see why a boy would go to all the trouble of pretending to be a girl just to access female changing rooms when there is the whole internet of naked women available to him.

But they do. All the fucking time.

People move house to be next to primary schools. They train for years to become doctors so they have access to women's bodies.

But - no - they probably won't go to the trouble of popping into the ladies...

That does God exist doesn't really impinge upon anyone's safe guards on a day to day basis because globally the human race has moved on from the Crusades. Except if you live in highly Christian countries like the USA.

Perfectly. A man in his early twenties isn't a boy. He's a man.

They single out and befriend single mums to get access to their children.

They train as swimming coaches.

They'll join churches and work hard to gain trust so that they are allowed to join children's work.

But yeah, nipping in to the women's toilets is probably too much effort.

I wouldn't say this thread is 'transphobic' as such, more strongly resistant to accepting transgender women as women.

Nail on head perfectly. That's a good description of my own position at least.

Your friend sounds like a dysphoric transsexual person. The kind of person that GRCs were originally designed to protect. I don't believe that your friend is actually female or born in the wrong body. I don't need to believe that in order to wish her well.

Until recently most of us were happy with the status quo, which allowed the very small number of post op dysphoric transsexual people like your friend into female changing rooms and so on. Transgender ideology will ultimately make life more difficult for people like them. TRAs have damaged the trust of women.

Guardian unfortunately there is already a word 'TERF' - trans exclusionary radical feminist. Women who do not recognise transgender women as women.

Terf is not used to mean 'this woman disagrees that transwomen are women' - it's used to mean 'this woman should be punched/silenced/shot/against the wall.

I wouldn't say this thread is 'transphobic' as such, more strongly resistant to accepting transgender women as women.

Why should people accept it? Because a man says so? Because you say so? It's biologically impossible and frankly ridiculous. Every woman I know is getting more and more sick of this rubbish. What a pity other social groups don't get this much attention.

Thermostatpolice

perfectly:

Trans women aren't women. Trans women are trans women. Nothing wrong with being a trans woman. Trans women don't have to be exactly the same as women to be deserving of respect and safety and basic human rights. Sometimes, the issues and concerns of women and trans women overlap. In many cases they don't. And no one's doing either trans women or women any good by pretending that this isn't the case. To do so is to deny reality.

And I just can't see why a boy would go to all the trouble of pretending to be a girl just to access female changing rooms when there is the whole internet of naked women available to him. It makes no sense.

You've been given multiple, multiple examples of just this thing happening. And that "whole internet of naked women" hasn't stopped men from raping or sexually harassing women. It hasn't stopped men from taking "upskirt" pictures or installing cameras in women's restrooms or changing rooms or locker rooms. Men have gone to incredible lengths to perv on women. Despite the possibility of being caught. Why on earth do you think that predatory men wouldn't exploit this kind of loophole? And no amount free porn is going to deter men from sexually harassing and assaulting women.

I had a look at the "research" you linked to Perfectly .

You might have realised by now that some of us are academics. What we mean by published research is a study done by people with expertise in the field (usually PhD level) using a population size that gives statistically significant results. In order to be published in an academic journal the results of the study have to be scrutinised by at least two independent peers in the same field.

What was produced in 2009, and you linked to, was a commissioned study, that was supposed to contribute to the debate (there is a disclaimer that it only represents the views of the authors) drawing together information that was in the public domain. In section 1:3 they outline their methodology - they used the Internet. (Effectively did a google) then talked to some trans people. It's reportage, nor research. If one of my students had produced this I might be kind and give them a pass because of the amount of work involved - but there is little evidence of critical thought or the use of any ACTUAL RESEARCH.

it's the grown up equivalent of the primary school project on dinosaurs that includes pictures of cave men killing them because the pictures were in an article on the Internet on a creationist website "but it includes dinosaurs and it was on the Internet it must be true" ??

This is too important to be reduced to that. What do geneticists, psychologists, sexologists, forensic psychologists, experts on criminal justice have to say? What does their research show and who's checked the biases?

We want our laws to be enacted using an EVIDENCE base, we don't want them made or changed because law makers are scared of looking uncool.

TERF is an acronym and a signal to misogynists to exhibit all forms of violence towards women.

perfectly

'Radical feminist' doesn't cover the breadth of perspectives at all. There are scientists, religious people, antifeminists, doctors, etc, etc who do not identify as radical feminists, but also do not believe you can change sex.

The reason 'radical feminist' objections to transgenderism are targeted exclusively for hatred in the name TERF, is the old chestnuts of male dominance, misogyny and lesbophobia being central to transgender ideology - radical feminists are female, largely lesbians, and they set up and value spaces without males present.