Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

As lesbian

The GRA basically kills off any lesbian/gay tendencies.

Lesbians like vag. Yes? So if Transwomen are women [cock or not] then Lesbians must also like cock. Thus, lesbians like vag and cock and are thus automatically bi.

The end.

But it doesn't affect you right?

Same applies for Gay and straight people. We are all automatically bi.

Yay who knew?

You can't see how harmful it can be to women to deny them their peaceful existence with their transgender friends.

Do you talk about this issue with your transgender friends?

Still 1.5k posts and people refer to transgender as a male delusion, a sexual fetish, a mental illness, something that needs to be cured... exactly what people were saying about the gays 50 years ago.

Why the need to keep bringing up gay people in relation to trans? I find this really odd, especially as a gay person yourself. gay people wanted (and still want) to be accepted for who they are. Trans people want to be accepted as something they are not. And trans ideology itself is deeply homophobic (and heterophobic, if such a thing actually existed)

Are you denying that a significant minority of 'transgender' people are fetishists (most transactivists I have met/read come across as fetishists actually..)? I don't understand the issue with saying that sex dysphoria is a mental illness either, its exactly what it is. There is no shame in having a mental illness.

something that needs to be cured

More straw manning and more inconsistencies.

perfectly - nobody on here wants to "cure" trans-identified people. Everybody on here thinks every human being should present and express themselves as they please. What people on here wish to do is preserve single sex spaces, services and programmes because we live in a structurally sexist society regardless of any individual's subjective perception of their identity.

And I'll ask you again - which is it? Is transgender identity something for which children must be immediately affirmed and medicated for? Or is it a feeling in a man's head which entitles him to women's spaces, services and programmes regardless of medical intervention? You're the one confused about cure/not cure, not the women here.

Still 1.5k posts and people refer to transgender as a male delusion, a sexual fetish, a mental illness, something that needs to be cured... exactly what people were saying about the gays 50 years ago.

Transgenderism absolutely includes a cross dressing fetish. Saying otherwise will put you on the wrong side of Stonewall.

Imagining you have the brain of a woman in the body of a man is absolutely a delusion.

Gender dysphoria is considered a mental disorder according to the DSM.

And good Lord, would you not like to see a cure for gender dysphoria? It’s a crippling condition. It deserves research and funding.

It sounds to me as though you think transgenderism is some kind of social movement!

The reason I am so invested in this issue is you propose to speak for all women, that opposing the GRA is for my own good. You can't see how harmful it can be to women to deny them their peaceful existence with their transgender friends.

Who proposes to speak for all women? No group will EVER agree 100% and to pretend they would would be ridiculous.

One would think that the one thing that feminists (as a group) have in common though, is the ability to name male violence and fight for the rights of female people to be free of it. But these past few days on here have shown me that thats not even a given

Transgenderism absolutely includes a cross dressing fetish. Saying otherwise will put you on the wrong side of Stonewall.

This is something that utterly baffles me actually. Why the need for the 'umbrella' to be so wide it encompasses transsexuals, fetishists, 'non-binary, 'gender fluid and so on. Who on earth benefits from lumping transsexual people in with those who feel lady penises are an actual thing?!

Perfectly are you just being deliberately obtuse now? You don't appear to be listening to what anyone is saying, you are just going about having a drink in the Marlborough with transwomen. Which is nice, but doesn't exactly address the issues.

Question: do you think that people can actually change sex?

Question: do you think that women need some spaces that are segregated by sex because women are oppressed because of their sex?

Question: do you think that it would be a good idea to open up these spaces that have been segregated by sex because of oppression based on sex to anyone based on identity.

I always think that the 'why are so you obsessed by biology and genitals, surely it's what's inside that counts' brigade are amongst the most privileged out there. Because if you don't get that the oppression of women for millenia is solely based on 'biology and gentials' then you need to 'check your privilege' (hate that expression!)

BatShite I'll say it again, i strongly oppose male violence. I just don't think it's relevant to throw my transgender friends under a bus in order to fight male violence. The two are completely separate issues.

perfectly you are just making it up as you go along - no-one on here has said anything about curing transgender people.

www.presenttensejournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tumblr_mx3a40uWuE1rfwfq9o1_1280.jpg

Transumbrella..fior anyone wondering. Any deviation from sex stereotypes, or even just an androgynous appearance makes you trans.

But MRI studies of the brain are not double blind studies and neither are they peer reviewed nor subject to meta analysis.

Perfectly. What is it that makes you not be attracted sexually to men? If you don't mind me asking.

Thehair I went through all this on the last thread and proposed certain compromises that protected both women and trans women. We even acknowledged there was some common ground before it descended into a bunfight again.

I just don't think it's relevant to throw my transgender friends under a bus in order to fight male violence. The two are completely separate issues.

Who is asking you to throw anyone under the bus?!

Retaining sex based protections is not throwing anyone under the bus.

Out of interest, what exactly do your 'transgender friends' say on the topic of self-ID? I have never heard any support of it outside of transactivists screeching on twitter. And actual transsexual people seem to be more against it than GC feminists!

perfectly and how exactly are your transgender friends being thrown under a bus in order to fight male violence?

Who on earth benefits from lumping transsexual people in with those who feel lady penises are an actual thing?!

The lady penis people.

They have hijacked the narrative of transsexuals to legitimise their fetish.

Calling a penis female organ is bad enough, but insisting lesbians are transphobic to think otherwise is clearly, to anyone, a sexual ploy.

But you won’t see anyone who supports the ideology calling it out.

I'll say it again, i strongly oppose male violence. I just don't think it's relevant to throw my transgender friends under a bus in order to fight male violence. The two are completely separate issues.

Also I don't understand how you can be against male violence when refusing to name male people as the problem. If male and female no longer exist, then how can one fight against male violence?

perfectly The Marlborough is a mixed-sex place. Nobody would suggest asking trans people to leave.

We're trying to convince you of our case. You disagree. That's fine (although it would be helpful if you could produce better evidence for your argument). We know that we don't speak for all women. Just as TRAs don't speak for all trans people.

There is some common ground here WRT male violence. Although to me it seems like you recognise the common ground but don't want to stand on it.

Just looking through Strreetvoices twitter feed now. What a shame that there are not more like him. That really would be breaking down gender. Its interesting the amount of people who are telling him he cannot possibly be trans. I thought anyone was trans who said they were. except when it doesn't suit transactivists, it seems. They are happy for rapists to claim to be female, but not happy for a guy to be secure in himself and use male areas 'dressed as a woman'? I wonder why this is.

Surely if you're 'born in the wrong body', there is a 'you' and then 'a body'.

So why are there these cock ups with gender, putting males into female bodies and vice versa, but not other characteristics like race or height or size?

Like could 'you' be African American, but wrongly born into a white British body? Why is this ridiculed, ie Rachel Dolezal?

Or could 'you' be a thin, brown haired sporty type, but you're born into a blonde, type 2 diabetic body who can't run very fast?

I mean, this thought process is just a bit mental really, isn't it.

I'll join you down the Marlborough, perfectly and you can introduce me to your trans friends. I'm always up for a drink . You would then be able to see for yourself that we do not think that 'trans people are bad and I don't want them anywhere near me'. I hope that you will not be too disappointed when I don't 'stand outside with placards demanding that your transgender friends leave'.

Whilst we're there, I'd like you to answer some questions that I asked you earlier. Let's start with these:

• Why you are so keen for men to come into areas where women and girls are getting undressed?

• Why are you still deliberately making false allegations of transphobia? What do you hope to achieve by this?

The goal posts are positively dancing at this point.

How is anything anyone here said preventing women and trans women from peacefully coexisting?

How is pointing out that cross-dressing fetish exists and is currently considered part of the trans umbrella anything like conversion therapy for gay men and lesbians?

How is acknowledging that sex dysphoria exists and is a debilitating condition that deserves compassion and effective treatment to help alleviate that dysphoria hateful?

How is the insistence that a human being can literally change biological sex or that a penis is a female organ anything but a delusion?

Also I don't understand how you can be against male violence when refusing to name male people as the problem. If male and female no longer exist, then how can one fight against male violence?

It's really simple.

A male is anyone who identifies as a male, not including those who are currently identifying as male but in some point in the future will identify as female, these people have always been female despite currently identifying as male. Male people also include currently female people who have always been male but just don't realise it yet.

In conclusion, the male sex category includes people who are male and who will be male, but not those who were male, or who will not be male at some point in the future on account of always having been female.

Clear?

As clear as mud irretating.

The goal posts are positively dancing at this point.

YY lunamoth