Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

And, as a lesbian, how do you feel about the rewriting of lesbian history to reclassify all butch lesbians as transmen?

Lang I don't feel threatened by self ID but maybe as I empathise with having an 'invisible' identity. I have faced prejudice in my life because I'm gay. If anyone told me I could not identify as gay until I had years of therapy and some straight doctors had 'diagnosed' me I would be pretty put out.

Oh for heavens sakes. You're just sea lioning now.

The enemy isn't being able to self-ID as trans. The enemy is being able to self-ID as a woman and in law.

And the reasons it's a bad idea for a member of the oppressor class (man) being able to self-ID into an oppressed class (woman) have been patiently explained to you over and over and over.

WTAF thank you for a laugh on this mainly humourless board! I would politely tell them that I was not
In fact I was friends with a MTF transsexual at school and when 'he' told me 'he was a girl I tried to persuade him he was gay. She transitioned as soon as she turned 18 but had to dress as a woman and wear skirts to college for two years. She never got bullied as far as I know but I wonder how much that was necessary.

perfectlywretched I think, if you are finding that the logical approach: scientific evidence, clear definitions, and universal principles are not persuasive to you, then it's possible that the best thing IS to fully immerse yourself in the transgender movement. Feminists tend to listen, respond, illustrate, demonstrate circular reasoning, logical fallacies etc. We try to clear up ambiguity to avoid conflict, hence the need for clear definitions for words. People cant communicate if we cant understand each other. We invite debate. Invite challenges. That's why there are dozens of women on this thread suggesting "did you know/have you considered/does this principle make sense". No one has said "you can't say that/that's hate speech/you're a bigot/shut up/you need to listen and put yourself second". You're welcome to thrash this out here and you'll be met with women who will engage and introduce you to stuff you may not have considered. And many of them have been here multiple times before yet continue trying to bring facts and considerations to new people who haven't been around this block before.

It's possible that you may find immersion in trans activism for a while helps illuminate both sides of this fence. I think you'll find most people on this 'side' applaud the idea that you should really listen well to both perspectives. There's little to be gained by trying to misrepresent the other side. See for yourself. Perhaps we are wrong. I suspect you need to get more involved with trans rights activism first hand to make your mind up.

You'll be able to engage here too - it's not an either/or proposition.

I invite you to fact check what feminists say, and trans activists too. Nothing to hide.

*my use of 'feminists' in no way meant to imply you are not a feminist!
Shorthand for gender-rejecting feminists perhaps?

perfectly I am not having a laugh in the slightest! This is what is happening to teenage lesbians that I know. They are being told on the internet that one of them should transition so that they are able to father children. They are also being encouraged to breast bind and take puberty blockers. I have always lurked on mumsnet and it was incredibly thoughtful posters like Datun who caused me to start posting once I connected what was happening to teenagers with what the FWR board was saying about TRA's.

I was always pro trans, live and let live, but that is really, really not the case.

If you want to fight transphobia why don't you go across to unilad, lad bible, the comments section of the mail or the comments on any of the trans articles on Facebook?

"WTAF thank you for a laugh on this mainly humourless board! I would politely tell them that I was not"

Good. Now how about others unsure, unsupported or vulnerable? How about those struggling with their emerging sexuality and feeling guilty or ashamed about it?

Thanks Barack - I've dipped in and out the feminist boards for a while but been on Mumsnet years (NC recently - not a newbie).
It was the 'letter to the woman who called me a terf' that persuaded me back to the feminist boards - I wanted to find out WTAF is happening in the world of feminism to make there be so much fear and hate towards trans women.

I am grateful to those who have explained their point reasonably and rationally.

perfectly, the ejaculating on toilet rolls story was posted online by the perpetrator himself on a voyeur site and linked to on here a while ago. It made pretty grim reading. The man tried to present himself as a lesbian so he wouldn't be challenged, then wanked onto the toilet roll and rolled it back up so the woman wouldn't notice it. He would also record women using the toilet and photograph his victims. Ugh.

Of course, this does not suggest that he was actually trans or that trans people are perverts etc - I think you realise now that this is not what we are saying at all.

It is an example though of the sort of thing that men (yes, some men, not all men etc etc) are prepared to do. When you are aware of incidents like these, or of men placing hidden cameras in toilets and changing rooms, it is hardly surprising that many women are reacting with alarm to any proposals which would make it easier/more socially acceptable for such a man to gain access to women when they are vulnerable.

"I wanted to find out WTAF is happening in the world of feminism to make there be so much fear and hate towards trans women"

Please tell me you've realised there isn't any?

I don't think the no debate stance is helpful, similarly I don't think it's helpful to say on Mumsnet 'they' ejaculate on toilet rolls in public loos to impregnate unsuspecting women (Dakun). Both come across as ignorant.

Even though they do. And, I don’t mean transwomen as a group. I mean predatory people, who, in that instance, identified as trans.

I have, literally, hundreds like that. All identify as trans, Are they trans? Who fucking knows? Maybe some are, maybe some aren’t. I don’t care.

I haven’t looked at ‘merely predatory men’. So I don’t know. I have only looked at trans sites.

It doesn’t matter to me, or any woman if they are trans.

The issue is that any man can identify as a woman with little to no modification to either their appearance or their attitude.

This isn’t about transwomen, because they are trans it’s about men, whether they are trans or not.

I wanted to find out WTAF is happening in the world of feminism to make there be so much fear and hate towards trans women.

Fear of male violence. Generally. Nothing to do with 'trans' as such, everything to do with male people.

As a lesbian myself, surely I have a say in who I am allowed to be attracted to?

As you are a lesbian who sometimes likes dick as long as its owner says they are a woman, then yes you are allowed your attractions but other lesbians, like me, who are only attracted to biological women are being told that this is wrong and bigoted, that we are oppressing transwomen by not wanting to have sex with someone with a penis and that we can't call ourselves lesbians because we are really just 'vagina fetishists'.

On a side note, the reason you are finding loads of older women on gaydargirls and not finding it full of transwomen is because it is an absolutely ancient website that was popular around approximately the year 2000 (before the recent trans explosion). The website automatically updates the age displayed on each person's profile page so loads of us signed up when we were in our 20s or 30s and (like me) just stopped going on there, can't remember our username or password, don't have the same email address anymore so have never deleted our profile. We'll all still be showing on there - now as people in our 30s, 40s and 50s -so it looks like it is a website frequented by older lesbians.

I went in a women's public toilet on Wednesday and there was jizz up the wall. It's not the first time I've encountered that.

perfectlywretched please read this twitter thread. This is the sort of crap lesbians are getting.

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

There are. They're keeping their heads down.

I'm trying to work out WHY the whole trans*activist thing has got so hyped up just at the moment.

Is it because of the proposed changes to the GRA legislation next year?

I'm trying to work out WHY the whole transactivist thing has got so hyped up just at the moment.*

This thread is good and includes a rummage I had in the old threads - turns out women have been arguing against the transactivists for ages:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3067033-Impact-of-transgender-organisations-who-is-behind-them-and-how-have-they-become-so-influential#72832804

But I think the GRA has meant that many women (and transwomen) are now publicly arguing against this, and that has resulted in a very visible fight. Literally, at Speakers Corner, along with press attention.

Holy crap pencils - that thread

And of course there can be nothing more truly misogynist than to persuade a beautiful young lesbian to cut out her uterus, cut off her breasts and take male hormones to stop looking like a woman- all the things you deeply envy and resent about her because you can never be her - and because she will never validate that you can be her, because she doesn't want to be fucked by your male body.

Transwomen encouraging young lesbians to trans have a very pure kind of misogyny at heart.

Jaysus, that Twitter thread

Another one utterly gobsmacked by that twitter thread. My god.

OMG thought I'd seen some nasty stuff written online, but wow

Perfectly, I’m glad that my thread brought you back to this board but having seen how you are just still not getting it despite the many intelligent, thoughtful women who have patiently explained to you why trans rights are harmful to women’s rights, if second Baracker’s suggestion that perhaps the trans community is the place for you.

I not if!

Pencils thanks for sharing that Twitter thread, I wonder how much Pink News etc are aware of threads like that and how frequent they are. I am surprised the LGBT press hasn't picked it up.

I still don't think that kind of thinking would ever gain momentum or receive support from the rest of the LGBT community or society.

Show me a thread like that with more than 100 likes or retweets and I will rethink my position and agree there is something to worry about.

MN has become an increasingly dangerous space for trans people, and for trans allies to navigate

What utter nonsense. Someone having a different opinion isn't dangerous.

This line of thinking is so short-sighted and ignorant. Free speech and free debate are the foundation stones of a liberal democracy. Good luck defending LGBT rights - or any other rights - in a society where you have silenced free speech. Idiots like you are undermining the very freedoms and rights you claim to value.

That thread

I know someone else has said this today: I've also seen in the last few weeks, even the word 'lesbian' is now being said to be transphobic.

This is homophobia on crack. It's as appalling that the government are enabling this as it is they are supporting and lionising people who use threats, intimidation and violence to further their political aims. Is everyone in Westminster seriously this stupid?