Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

I have worked in the NHS and a woman can request to see any practitioner she pleases and she does not have to give a reason.

The new GRA amendments will mean if she asks for a born/natal woman then it will be hate speak/illegal to make this request.

I've spent my whole fucking life not conforming to feminine stereotypes.

Metoo.

I was an engineer [civils] and own chainsaws and sheds. I am as much female as the next woman whose main aim in life is to own a Gucci handbag. BECAUSE OF OUR VAGINAS NOT OUR POSSESSIONS.

I just have faith that a transgender practitioner would show the same level of professionalism, respect and sensitivity as any other practitioner.

Me too. And I think they probably would. That's the problem. Some practitioners have absolutely no regard for women's bodily autonomy, and dignity and sexually assault them. Have you read any of the threads on here by women who were touched inappropriately and unnecessarily and sexually assaulted by GPs?

Transwomen are equally (stats suggest slightly more, actually) as likely to do that as men. And that's why women still need protection during intimate examinations with chaperones or being able to request a woman.

the strange, toxic bubble of this board

Do you know why Mumsnet seems like a strange bubble to you? It's because women are allowed to say what they think, and discuss their concerns, in a way that is shut down everywhere else. This isn't an echo chamber and we can defend our position. This is much closer to what the majority of people think, we're just better informed.

Is it not true that these women make invoke the same level of fear?
No it's not true. Because human beings are fundamentally animals and can innately recognise whether others are male or female. We use lots of cues, not just visible superficial appearance for this. In common with all sexually reproducing animals, our continued existence as a species depends on this.
The idea that a GNC woman is as threatening as a man is a straw man. It gets trotted out all the time in these debates but we all know that we can tell the difference between a GNC female and a man quite quickly.

Perfectly, how do you feel about women who identify as men?

Are you sad and weary about their situation? Think they should be able to join the Round Table (men only), freemasons (men only), join men-only golf clubs, become Catholic priests, inherit titles reserved for men?

And, crucially, do you think that men intend to allow any of that to happen?

Because that really is an under-represented group. If you want to use your energies to help a growing group of transgender people who face barriers to inclusion then I'm sure they would love your help. Of course, they'd have to get your attention first.

Thank you quentin that's what I like about this board, there is always someone able to articulate an opinion that I have but just can't get past 'because it just is OK, are you on glue'

Is it not true that these women make invoke the same level of fear?
No it's not true. Because human beings are fundamentally animals and can innately recognise whether others are male or female. We use lots of cues, not just visible superficial appearance for this. In common with all sexually reproducing animals, our continued existence as a species depends on this.
The idea that a GNC woman is as threatening as a man is a straw man. It gets trotted out all the time in these debates but we all know that we can tell the difference between a GNC female and a man quite quickly.

this I've been trying to put these thoughts into words for a long time.

Yes-there is an irony about the invisibility of transmen. And the speed with which transwomen seem to be getting what they want without discussion, debate or space for compromise.

Now if I can just get to grips with copy and paste and bold I may one day bring something useful to this discussion!

Perfectly, why are you attacking Datun for reporting acts and not the people perpetuating them?

Show it to anyone in RL and they would be horrified that feminists are claiming this is the way transgender people behave.

Have another example from me.

metro.co.uk/2016/12/06/paedophile-who-kissed-a-child-insists-hes-a-five-year-old-girl-and-brought-doll-to-court-6305005/

A paedophile who forcibly kissed a girl until passersby intervened. He insisted he's a woman in court (actually he identifies as a 5-year old girl). Is he trans or is he not trans? He says he is.

Am I inciting hatred here? Genuine question.

DistaffSide because they're not true.

@BertrandRussell
Earlier you asked - What are we actually going to do about this? How are we going to come to an accommodation that gets the best possible outcome for everyone?
Do you think it's worth starting a solution focussed thread to explore just this? It could explore what people would be open to accommodating and what is non-negotiable.
I think it is more compelling to lobby from a position of what is wanted and why whilst acknowledging competing wants/interests and explaining how far one can go to accommodate those.

I also agree with quentins post of 10:08

Great thread everyone
It might be worth remembering that the definition of transphobia is so gloriously wide ranging that virtually any concern, biological / scientific fact, news story, legal issue that fails to be completely supportive of transgenderism is seen of as transphobia! Hence all the complaints about this thread and others being full of hate.

It's an exceptionally anti-democratic and totalitarian movement.

perfectly please supply reasonable doubt that what Datun says is not true. Also please answer my previous question.

Datun imho is an extremely well informed and articulate poster. I too am incredibly shocked by what she wrote, but I cannot see that she's made it up to incite hatred.

"DistaffSide because they're not true."

Well, they are. They are just not true of the vast majority of transgender people. Transphobia is not true of the vast majority of feminists either......

Dear God, the irony of perfectly accusing Datun of lying.

The whole fake deleted photoshopped Tweet is a distant memory, it seems. In fact, it never actually happened.

I think the issue of "not true of the vast majority of transgender people" is worth pursuing. If someone came on here and rather than saying simply "they're not true" (when the reports in question have actually been taken from newspaper reports of court proceedings and TRAs' own words on the internet) but instead said "you are deliberately misrepresenting the statistics - and that is as inflammatory as if I tried to take the Rochdale perpetrators, who were guilty as sin and absolute monsters, and make them representative of a whole community," I would consider this a much more nuanced position worthy of debate.

However, I still think even this argument about proportions would fall down, because we have very carefully said this is not about all trans people, but about two groups - the minority of transwomen who are also sexually predatory, and the men who are not trans at all but are sexually predatory who would take advantage of self-ID.

Furthermore, we do need to be able to discuss the exact percentages, because when, for example, someone goes through publicly available records from the prison service and finds that of the prisoners in the male estate who have applied to change gender, round about half of them are sex offenders - i.e., a percentage way higher than in the male population at large, way higher than in the trans population at large and astronomically higher than in the female population, then there is something odd going on here that needs to be investigated.

Popchyk no that is my exact point, there is a lot of BS on the internet and you shouldn't believe everything you read.

You can bring any number of articles featuring despicable acts that may or may not be perpetrated by trans people. In all the cases we very likely do not know the facts behind the story and the true degree of trans identity or not.

When it becomes hateful is where those cases are used to tar all trans people with that despicable behaviour and stoke up fear that this will happen to anyone coming in contact with a trans person.

Its exactly the same with the venerable woman asking for another practitioner. I'm pretty sure you do not have to submit to a forceful examination in the NHS. Everyone has the right to refuse any practitioner for any reason. Everyone has the right to a chaperone. This will not change and it will not be illegal or hate speech to exercise that right. Constantly perpetuating these mistruths though is stoking up fear and hatred of trans people.

Well the judge disagrees with you, perfectly. He jailed the man for 15 months based on evidence presented to the Jury who found him guilty of the offence.

How can you deny it when it is there for you to see?

How do you know it's not true?

Perfectly Are you also suggesting the example I linked to isn't true?

As Bertrand said, these acts are not true of the majority of trans people. People on this board have said, again and again, that their concerns are for the unintended consequences of the GRA.

I am no transphobe, quite the opposite. I believe trans people should be able to live peacefully and integrated, however they choose to present/identify. What I don't agree with is removing sex segregated spaces and I don't agree that transwomen ARE women.

Yes-there is an irony about the invisibility of transmen. And the speed with which transwomen seem to be getting what they want without discussion, debate or space for compromise.

This

Ok perfectly
Here's the TW with the dildo. It's their pinned tweet. 100% definitely NSFW. Click at your own risk
mobile.twitter.com/Meisha_TS

I'm not doing the rest of your homework for you, but have a look at gender trender. All fully linked and referenced.

Some males calling themselves trans women say and do vile shit. It's a sign of how male the whole movement is tgat feminists get blamed for discussing it. We should just pretend it isn't happening, right?