Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

the true degree of trans identity or not.

That's the point isn't it Debbie how do we measure this? How do we separate genuine trans people from those that just want access to women and girls.

When it becomes hateful is where those cases are used to tar all trans people with that despicable behaviour and stoke up fear that this will happen to anyone coming in contact with a trans person.

Straw man, AGAIN. It's not being used to tar all trans people with the same brush. It's being used to explain why self-ID is a bad idea.

Its exactly the same with the venerable woman asking for another practitioner. I'm pretty sure you do not have to submit to a forceful examination in the NHS. Everyone has the right to refuse any practitioner for any reason.

I think you mean vulnerable not venerable. Yes, women do have the legal right to request a woman HCP. Currently, they have the right to request this on the basis of sex. If the proposed amendments to the GRA go through they will only have the right to request this on the basis of gender identity. It would be illegal a) for a women to request based on sex and b) for the NHS to comply with sex-based requests. Should a woman insist, the NHS won't bend over to accommodate her - they will discharge her from service on the basis of having refused care.

I'm also a lurker of years who joined during Spartacus. Formerly I was a strident trans advocate. Not any more. Once I was exposed to the female penis/woman=ladybrain ideology that was it for me.

Perfectly keep going please. You are showing up the trans ally mivement as weak and illogical. It's very helpful to us.

And I remember the reddit clip that showed the toilet paper ejaculator's thread. Disgusting. And all you can say is 'it's not true'. Weak.

Narcissistic perverts and porn soaked fetishists have taken over the movement but they evoke old school transsexuals as their mascots when they want to look vulnerable. And it's the children who suffer, who are being abused.

As for the responses to my post last night. I have participated in a few threads and plopped in a few others. The ones I have engaged in have been overwhelming and every post made is met by a barrage of reply which it is impossible to keep up with the reading of and no chance of responding to. There is no way to have a debate as any engagement is overwhelmed by the shouting, and yes some if it directed to me was blatant ridicule with nothing being added to the conversation, there are even some examples in this thread in response to my post.

Anyone not gender critical and trans exclusive is a seagull in here. they may be able to land on the pontoon at Pier 57 for a few seconds but any squawking they make is drowned out by the barking of the seal lions and they either fly off to poop from on a high elsewhere or get crushed under the weight of the sea lions thrashing around. Ultimately neither the sea lion or the seagull communicate with each other its just a barrage of noise.

"When seagulls follow the trawler it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea"

Eric Cantona had that right.

Like the other trans sympathetic posters I think it’s time for me to step away from the feminism board. It’s clear that despite being a woman and a feminist I am not welcome here.

LangCleg

Well the simple answer is that anyone can ask for a different practitioner with no need to give a reason. Isn't that not already the case?

Popchyk

Thank for making my point about hostility. Any post is picked apart to be twisted into something else and misdirected and ridiculed.

Perfectly,

Sorry to hear that, but I have to agree. there is no way to act as a dissenting voice in these parts. Ironic that they claim to want to engage and are being denied the debate, but they have the biggest platforms and loudest voices and shut down any debate that isn't among themselves.

Debbie, the NHS is wildly over-stretched. If you venture beyond the feminism section, you will see people talking about 2 or 3 week waits for a basic GP appointment. It's not realistic to think that the NHS functions on the basis of patients being allowed to decide on a whim (because that's what women would have to pretend to do under the proposed law changes) to ask to see another practitioner.

Also, consider the way race is treated. A patient cannot ask for a medical practitioner of a particular race, and repeatedly doing so would lead to them being removed from their GP's list. And rightly so. Would you really want to see the same done to women asking to see a practitioner of the same biological sex, when there are real and genuine reasons why women might want to do so? Or are you of the school of thought which says "refusing to say that a transwoman is a woman is exactly the same as racism"? (Big hint - it isn't, otherwise everyone would have been perfectly happy with Rachel Dolzeal identifying as black).

High five Debbie6666 and keep going if you can! The more people that challenge the hate the better.

Rather than high fiving each other, how about engaging with the actual arguments people have made (rather than repeatedly twisting them into straw men versions which bear no resemblance to the actual arguments made)?

Debbie, eh?

I only quoted Eric Cantona.

What on earth is hostile about that?

The more people that challenge the hate the better.
What hate? I notice you have not got any comment to make about Meisha's video. Do you genuinely see Meisha as a woman?

Rather than high fiving each other, how about engaging with the actual arguments people have made (rather than repeatedly twisting them into straw men versions which bear no resemblance to the actual arguments made)

Well, that's just it really. Or you don't respond to reasoned debate and instead you scattergun to another argument. Often, you re leading the cavalry. You make point after point, all on different subjects, and we respond and then you turn around and say 'too much'.

It's an exceptionally anti-democratic and totalitarian movement.

This.

You can bring any number of articles featuring despicable acts that may or may not be perpetrated by trans people. In all the cases we very likely do not know the facts behind the story and the true degree of trans identity or not.

Are you for real? Debbie The true trans identity? What is this?

they have the biggest platforms and loudest voices and shut down any debate that isn't among themselves
This is just patently wrong. Maybe it's called projection.
For several years GC feminists have been trying to discuss this and mumsnet is one of the very few places we can. On most big platforms (Twitter, Facebook etc) posters are blocked and banned. All the political parties don't allow this to be debated. At many work places you'd be disciplined for expressing a GC view. Our kids are being taught about boy/girl brains in school, as if it's a fact. Healthcare professionals have lost their jobs through advocating watchful waiting for trans identifying children. Feminists have been no platforms, banned from holding events, threatened, intimidated and suffered violence.
I don't at all see the GC debate having a big platform and shutting down others views at all. Quite the opposite.

Are you for real? Debbie The true trans identity? What is this?

I think this is the one where the debate goes like this:

TRA: You hate all trans people.

GC feminist: No, we don't. We oppose self-ID because it gives free entry to abusive males.

TRA: This never happens. You only say it does because you hate all trans people.

GC feminist: Here are examples 1, 2, 3 and 4. If you need any more do shout out because there are plenty more.

TRA: You're saying all trans people are perverts. You are inciting hate on all trans people.

GC feminist: No, we're not. We're explaining, with the examples you asked for, why self-ID is bad for both women and trans people.

TRA: I'm going to have to leave this board because the hate for true trans identity is just too much.

When it becomes hateful is where those cases are used to tar all trans people with that despicable behaviour and stoke up fear that this will happen to anyone coming in contact with a trans person.

But they aren't being used to tar all trans people! I can't understand why you have come to that conclusion.

These are examples of behaviour by predatory men. In some cases, it is from the men themselves bragging about it on the internet - we can't verify every last detail of every story, of course, but it certainly gives an example of their intent.

In other cases, we can reasonably believe the story is true because the men are caught and convicted. I have read many a story about men hiding cameras to film women using the toilet, for example.

It is bad enough that these predatory men have been able to access women's facilities as it is. The unintended consequences of the GRA is that it will be much easier for such predatory men to gain access to women in a state of undress because it will be harder to challenge them.

We are talking about men. Men as a class, and in particular the predatory men and the lengths they will go to in order to access women. We are not saying that all trans women are predators. It is you who has come to that conclusion.

We actively want you to understand this. The discussion can't move on until you can get past your misinterpretation of our concerns. This is why we are rephrasing things, giving different examples, asking you questions. We are not trying to shout you down or drive you away. We are just trying to pinpoint what it is that you haven't understood, so that we can address it in a different way.

They are all straw men put up to attack trans people. No one denies there are bad people out there but these examples don't represent the trans community or are they used towards figuring out a workable solution for the vast majority of woman and trans people.

They are put up to make the argument that trans women are not to be trusted and should be othered.

How the fuck is a true story a straw man?

These men identify as trans. They self ID as women.

How do you separate the genuine transsexuals and the non genuine ones with self ID.

What the fuck are you not getting?

They are put up to make the argument that trans women are not to be trusted and should be othered.

And again, for the eleventy billionth time, they are put up to make the argument that self-ID, as proposed for potential legislation to amend the GRA, is a bad idea.

How many times must it be said, Debbie?!

Cheering Debbie6666 on! Let's not let fear, ignorance and hate beat common sense.

Rather than blame feminists for tarring all TIM's with the same brush, why don't you blame the non genuine TIM's for how they represent the trans community.

Or will that just get in the way of your virtue signaling?

I'm cheering Debbie on and you too Perfectly because you are helping to peaktrans loads of lurkers out there with your illogical position and your irrational shouts of hate

Keep going