Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

I'm trying to understand whether there is a happy medium as per the OP.

There isn't any happy medium here, if people can just self-identify as the opposite gender to their birth sex and immediately be counted as that sex. Because gender is a social construct whereas sex is the biology of your human body. You can no more change your human body than a pea can turn itself into a tomato.

Show it to anyone in RL and they would be horrified that feminists are claiming this is the way transgender people behave

I thought the claim was from the person themselves, TERFs didn't make it up. If people in RL would be horrified, then that is a good thing surely? Or are you saying they are horrified not at the act, but at feminists for pointing it out? Again, it being woman's fault that a man did a bad thing.

perfectly

I understand you find Datun post shocking. The content is shocking.

Why is your disgust directed at the women pointing it out, not the people carrying out the behaviour?

Opal because it isn't true.

SpartonDregs I get that. What I don't understand is the basis of Feminism that doesn't discretely define that biology. There must be one, however I don't get it and I I would really like to.

WhyAspoonCousin the OP is asking for moderate trans voices to help feminists protect single sex spaces and supporting trans people organising as trans people to further the rights of trans people.

That's what everyone on this board advocates, too! So why do you think advocating what the OP advocates indicates that everyone on this board is full of hate?

You've lost me!

"In the strange, toxic bubble of this board it’s seen as rational and reasonable argument and I feel so strongly that I need to speak up and say I am a feminist and this is not what I think."
Nobody is saying that is how all, or even most or even many transgender people behave. But the received wisdom is that it is paranoid, hateful and vile to even suggest that there is the slightest sliver of an issue with self identification. And very quick suppression of any evidence to the contrary. Datun feels very strongly about this and she has a right to express her views. Perfectly could you address my post of 8.15, please?

Ok that's it. I've peaked and then some. This thread has really opened my eyes.

OP Datun has provided examples of Self ID being misused by misogynist twats and you still don't see how this loophole will be extremely dangerous for biological females and genuine transgender people?

It will be open season for misogynists everywhere.

Ok, so all gender critical feminists are just the meaniest meanies ever, full of baseless hate.

Whereas in the multi faceted world of trans there is nothing less than an earnest peaceful poppet to be found?

I actually find that world so temping it must be peaceful. No critical thought or uncomfortable questions about reality.

Haven't you already referred to 'the pisstakers' that will take advantage of this situation?

What I don't understand is the basis of Feminism that doesn't discretely define that biology. There must be one, however I don't get it and I I would really like to.

Women do not have penises. Feminism is about people with vaginas. I am not sure what is confusing you to be honest. The Translobby are saying that men [whose people with penises and no uterus] can get pregnant, have period pains, and having a vagina is irrelevant and that those women with penises have more rights than those other Cis-women with them.

Thanks for clearing that up, sorry yes then I agree with you.
What do you actually want?
TBH you can say what you like because I will not return to this thread.
You have confirmed that your opinion is the only opinion. Have a lovely day in that knowledge!

The first bit you quote, Perfectly, is an account by a man of what he claims to do. He’s bragging about it; possibly lying, of course. It’s not something datun is inventing to be hateful.

Yes, he’s an extreme. Do you mind me misgendering him, by the way? Would you call him transgender or does his nasty little habit rule that out?

You have confirmed that your opinion is the only opinion.

It isn't my opinion - it is biology! I didn't make men have penises and women have vaginas - honest. I am just a 50 yr old woman trying to point out that making self-declaration of gender will impact woman and girls and anyone pointing this out gets abuse and told to DIE. Or they get plopped and a flounce. Just like you have done.

SpartonDregs What's confusing me is those that say they are feminists but call transphobe & see hate on these threads! I'm not one bit confused about where my feminism lies (or yours by the sounds of things). Thanks for the explanations, though - always good for the lurkers

Welcome lurkers! On both sides of this debate. It's encouraging to know that you are there

Betrand I appreciate a lot of women have suffered trauma at the hands of men and would wish to have an intimate examinations done by a woman.

There is a murky area that I don’t have all the answers to. A female friend of mine is tall with broad shoulders and a square jaw. There have been a few upsetting incidents when people have shrieked ‘tranny’ at her. Perhaps if she chose to become a doctor or midwife it would make vulnerable women fear she was not born a woman and object to having her examine them. I do not have all the answers and I cannot stop vulnerable women feeling fearful.

I just have faith that a transgender practitioner would show the same level of professionalism, respect and sensitivity as any other practitioner. If a vulnerable woman objected to an examination for any reason common sense would prevail and they would quietly arrange for her to see somebody different.

Women do not have penises. Feminism is about people with vaginas.

I mean, this is basically it, isn't it? But to get precise about it: my feminism is about humans of the female reproductive sex class. This will include not only women and girls but also tran-identified females/transmen.

That last point is quite important, really. Because it highlights quite how sexist the current radical transactivism is. While it fights to bully TIMs into spaces, positions and affirmative action programmes set up for women and girls, what happens to the TIFs? They get absorbed into the category "men" and are ignored. No special spaces, positions or affirmative action programmes for them.

Nothing illustrates the fact that current radical transactivism is a penis rights movement more clearly than its wholesale lack of concern for or interest in the representation of TIFs/transmen.

I just have faith that a transgender practitioner would show the same level of professionalism, respect and sensitivity as any other practitioner. If a vulnerable woman objected to an examination for any reason common sense would prevail and they would quietly arrange for her to see somebody different.

So you support legislation that would make it illegal for a traumatised woman to do this because you have faith that the traumatised woman would have the courage to make that request in the hostile environment of it being a illegal request? And faith that health services would quietly undermine legal discrimination laws whenever this came up? Righty ho.

perfectly this jumped out at me I just have faith we all wish could have faith in our fellow human beings all of the time but sadly history proves that hasn't worked out well. This is why we have laws, the majority of people do not need them as they would behave anyway, but we still have them for those who don't.

please answer this

If a pregnant woman confronted by a transwoman to do a necessary internal wants to request a different HCP to do the procedure, but the transwoman disagrees, whose side do YOU want the LAW of the country that you live in to be on?

How does one define, describe and record the harm done to women (and by whom) when there is no word for a human being belonging to the class that produces eggs and bears young ?

Another lurker here. This sums up my position exactly. How do we capture the damage and discrimination based in biology when people without that biology can label themselves as having it?

And ladybrain. I've spent my whole fucking life not conforming to feminine stereotypes. That doesn't make me not a woman and I do get really fucking angry when people say I must have an innate gender identity because I call myself a woman. Gender is utter bullshit and I will never agree that it should be used to define me or others.

I don't see how forcing stereotypes onto others is progressive. For example why is it that in some schools the only way for girls to wear trousers is if they identify as a boy? Why isn't it school uniform has trousers or skirts and children can pick whichever they want regardless of sex?

Thank you to the FWR people like Datun. Your discussions are thought provoking but I've never seen hatred or bigotry.

Lang what about women who have a masculine appearance? My friend who is tall with a square jaw? Women with facial hair?
Is it not true that these women make invoke the same level of fear?

The law protects women by allowing them the freedom to choose their GP. Women are never forced to have examinations, they can simply refuse or request to see somebody different. I think this level of protection is fair and appropriate.

WTAF I have worked in the NHS and a woman can request to see any practitioner she pleases and she does not have to give a reason.

Thank you perfectly I'm well aware of that fact no could you please answer my question.

If a pregnant woman confronted by a transwoman to do a necessary internal wants to request a different HCP to do the procedure, but the transwoman disagrees, whose side do YOU want the LAW of the country that you live in to be on?

"I just have faith that a transgender practitioner would show the same level of professionalism, respect and sensitivity as any other practitioner"

Blimey. Have you read any of the vey distressing threads on here where people have not been treated that why by HCP? And you expect a vulnerable woman who has asked for a woman HCP to be able to say "No, not that woman?" What about the HCP concerned' manager? They would be risking prosecution if they said "Mary, I honestly think you shouldn't attend this patient......."

Lang what about women who have a masculine appearance? My friend who is tall with a square jaw? Women with facial hair? Is it not true that these women make invoke the same level of fear?

Oh for heavens sakes. What do you think happens to such people now? Butch lesbians are misgendered ALL. THE. TIME. I'm pretty GNC although I'm straight, and I've been misgendered loads of times in the course of my years on the planet - sometimes by accident and sometimes in an effort by sexist and/or homophobic men to belittle me.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with feminists defending women's sex-based rights.