Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Maybe Helen1111 - oh no... I think that one has already been done...

GuardianLions
Not really sure what your point is, but your kind of proving mine!

I don't mind if you dont see it. i think other people will get it though..

Well its pretty hard to come out of lurking as a trans inclusive feminist around here

Reasoned arguments too much for you eh?

But having said that, I'll reiterate again that the vast majority of posters on FWR and the trans threads do support the original transwomen, those with body dysphoria and the parents of children and teens who are battling the system for real treatment for their trans identifying or body dysmorphic children.

I’ll be putting a letter together. Have you asked to meet your MP?

Maybe so Debbie but you gender-non-critical feminists seem to share ownership the whole rest of the internet with TRAs, so I don't feel too sorry for you.

I just wanted to add my bathroom anecdote to support the need for female spaces. I was out late at a gig and a young woman came into the loo looking a bit upset. How do you get a guy to leave you alone she asked. She'd met him on an online date, it hadn't gone well and now he was demanding to come home with her, claiming he had nowhere to go as he'd missed his last train. She didn't know the area well and English wasn't her first language which added to her stress. Well it was inspiring to see how the women rallied round her. "You don't owe him anything love. Tell him to fuck off. Do you want me to tell him to fuck off,"? And someone did just that, marched up to the guy and told him to stop harassing the young woman. We walked her to the door safely and got her a taxi. It was a boozy but lovely example of spontaneous sisterhood in action. And the female-only space was an important factor.

I disagree with proposed changes to the gender rights bill. I think women should have access to sex-segregated public spaces. Sex is fundamentally binary, female and male, and one cannot change sex. Gender is oppressive and damaging to both sexes. Trans people exist and I validate their rights to live free from physical harm and discrimination. All this and more, and I value being able to express these views publicly without being told to die in a fire ugly terf #nodebate. So thanks again MN and FWR.

Thanks for speaking up Debbie6666 - I agree that being a trans inclusive feminist is pretty tough around here. I have seen pro trans posters get ridiculed, accused of trolling, sock puppeting... being a sea lion (that was a new one for me) until they are driven away. Ironic that a feminist chat board is intent on silencing so many women.

I agree OP, I don't read many of the feminism threads any more because I'm horrified by the hate I see on them.

I don't read many of the feminism threads any more because I'm horrified by the hate I see on them.

Another lurker coming out as gender critical here and this is the comment that did it for me. There are ten pages here, ten pages of reasoned, logical, thoughtful arguments, and instead of debating or engaging with any of them all you can see is hatred! How is that possible? I don’t see how anyone can read the same ten pages I just read and even say that!!

Please don't just throw words like "hate" around! There has honestly been no "hate" on this thread. Discuss, debate, share - we need to find a way through this. It's difficult. Incredibly difficult.

I think perfectly's answer to a question of mine is key. I asked whether a natal woman should be able to refuse intimate examinations by a male bodied, bearded (I used bearded because she did). She replied "Bertrand I believe in equal rights, not that 'natal' women's rights should come above treating transgender women as women."

So, how will that work in practice? To me it sounds as if it means that transwomen's rights should take priority. But I am perfectly prepared to be told I am misunderstanding. Can someone please talk about this some more?

If it seems hard to be here because of the prevailing view, then the onus is on you, representing the trans inclusive, intersectional, my-feminism-is-for-everyone demographic to improve that. Bring better arguments. Stay around and fight your corner. Don't plop and flounce. Don't tell women here they're being hateful for having an opinion. Don't name call. Don't straw man. Try to answer the questions that you're being asked. Don't say that you're horrified, or appalled, or that we ought to be ashamed of ourselves. No one ever changed opinions by doing that.

On every single trans thread I have ever seen on here, gender critical feminists have calmly, politely begged for engagement - good faith, respectful engagement - to help us understand where you are coming from.

It is rarely forthcoming. The preference is to plop in, call us mean girls and bigots, maybe a quick tug on the heartstrings about how we're killing vulnerable people, and then it's off to site stuff to tell everyone how hateful we are and how we ought to be contained.

So if it's not working for you, change it. Have the courage of your convictions. You're so sure you're right, then let's hear why.

That's how I read it too. I also don't see hate. I see analysis of problems and I see worries.

Have RTFT, de-lurked and fallen mightily from the fence.

I just want to say thank you to all of the wonderful, articulate and reasoned posters on here. The scales have most definitely fallen from my eyes.

I've spent the last few weeks educating myself about how the law allowing men to self identify as women would affect my daughters. At first I was surprised, then shocked. The shock was soon replaced by anger when I realised that I would need to have a conversation with my teenage daughter, that would go like this:

Me: You love your sport don't you?

Daughter: Of course I do, it gives me confidence and has brought me out of my shell. It's been well worth training my guts out for 6 days a week and giving up my social life for the last few years.

Me: Sorry love, but you've wasted the last 5 years of your life, because now you'll have to compete against men that say they're women.

Fuck that!

WhyAspoonCousin Are you a feminist? If so, I would be really grateful if you could help me understand something. (I believe understanding is what GC feminists are accused of not doing).

How does one define, describe and record the harm done to women (and by whom) when there is no word for a human being belonging to the class that produces eggs and bears young ? What is the basis of Feminism without the words man and woman referring to biology?

I agree OP, I don't read many of the feminism threads any more because I'm horrified by the hate I see on them

So you know that there is hate on threads that you admit you don't read?

How does that work, then?

Let's face it, even those who do claim to read the threads and find them full of hatred never actually manage to point out examples when challenged.

I came on to agree with the OP not to argue with someone. Sorry.
Yes I am a feminist.

I wonder ifnit's worth trying to ignore the "hate" "vile" posts and try to focus on the issues. What are we actually going to do about this? How are we going to come to an accommodation that gets the best possible outcome for everyone?

"I came on to agree with the OP not to argue with someone. Sorry."

You don't have to argue-just put your point of view.

I came on to agree with the OP not to argue with someone. Sorry.

The crux of my argument is that criminals with penises/rapists should not be in women's prisons no matter how they identify.

If you agree with this premise, then it makes you a TERF.

If you agree that criminals with penises/rapists should be housed in women's prisons then how in any way can you call yourself a feminist.

It really is a conundrum, don't you think?

I'm not looking for a fight. I'm trying to understand whether there is a happy medium as per the OP. But until I get where other feminists are coming from, I'm not sure I can.

I already have, I agree with the OP.

If you forget mainstream media and look elsewhere you will find, literally thousands of posts. Transwomen who go into women’s bathrooms and ejaculate on toilet paper. For the sole purpose of impregnating the next woman who goes in, who they watch. Or the accounts on here of women who man rape crisis telephone lines, and have to deal, daily, with transwomen calling, pretending they have been raped, and making the woman listen to the account. The women can tell immediately that they are fake.

I can’t see the above post from Dakun as anything other than inciting hate against the transgender community. Show it to anyone in RL and they would be horrified that feminists are claiming this is the way transgender people behave.

In the strange, toxic bubble of this board it’s seen as rational and reasonable argument and I feel so strongly that I need to speak up and say I am a feminist and this is not what I think.