Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Hello lurkers! Thank you for standing up to be counted for women. If there is a right side of history, I'm pretty sure you'll be on it

I read today (paraphrasing) that history is rarely (never?) on the side of people who advocate sterilising children. Which is a pretty powerful response I think.

I mentioned pistonheads as a mumsnet equivalent on another thread, to be shot down with the reply that they're boy racer types, and being normal person I didn't pursue it, but I've had occasion to be over there again, and that is a complete mis-characterisation. They're just like us, but blokes (I had a question about radiators I'd googled for - previously it had been car related though, and they were perfectly normal - just like here)

I still contend that if you posed these kinds of question at pistonheads, there'd be no guilt, no hand-wringing, no apologising for boundaries.

I'm nearly 40s (and like a previous poster, found 30s liberating!), if I can manage to make the money to retire, if this goes through, the mischief I can cause by declaring myself male whilst being clearly female (no hiding me - I'm short and dumpy). And I'm a normal, middle-aged woman, with no desire to masterbate in public, or in mens clothes, I'm tame compared to the male fetishists out there.

Hairy legged (and armpitted - and it's lovely and soft - I stroke it absent-mindedly like a beard). Keeping the bra though - I have 4 flights of stairs in my house, and I'm generally carrying something so can't manually restrain them!

Also have 2 sons, so man hating == impossible - they are adorable, and the one and only time I sent the eldest into the mens (he's just 7) I made him sing the whole time so I knew he was ok - so I'm more of a mother-loving feminist than man-hating.

I have actually joined the hairy legged part (and armpits recently)

My husband either has not noticed, or noticed and thought better of saying anything.

I wodner if my lack of shaving recently has been because I discovered my inner radfem I think its probably just as I got lazy though and am not wearing dresses anymore so have no need to shave really. Don't give a crap about my appearance these past few months at all. Which is strangely liberating, not having to worry about makeup and looking good.

I see what you mean about Pistonheads. I've spent most of my life working in mostly male environments (though the bit of science I work in is now getting a lot better - about 30 to 40% female now!), and quite a lot of time doing stereotypically blokey hobbies, and most men are fine - sane, decent people. It's the 5% or so who are shites who make life miserable for the rest of us. Slightly miserable for decent men (though they learn coping/avoiding strategies early on in life) and very miserable for women (because the tossers actively seek us out with the express intention of making our lives miserable, so the strategy of "just avoid the bastards" isn't open to us).

I wodner if my lack of shaving recently has been because I discovered my inner radfem

I use the fact that 10 minutes away from the kids spurs wails of 'muuuuuuuum' (even if dad is in the room next to them, catering to every need) - but honestly, I was just looking for an excuse cos shaving is substandard, and waxing is too painful - and my pits are lovely and soft, and no-one actually cares, even when I lived in a holiday destination and exercised at a spa)

Prickly - exactly - I work in IT, and most people are fine, some are patronising but well-meaning, and some are downright misogynist. - that's basically my experience of men, and, what gives me hope.

Otherwise, I have 2 sons, so if I didn't believe there were plenty of good men, if I didn't believe that it was training and socialised attitude that was the problem, I would be in deep shit.

Sorry Nuffaluff, only just coming back to the thread.

Without outing myself, part of my role at work is to deliver a therapy based programme which includes the days news items for orientation purposes. I didn't use the subject with the clients because it's confusing for most people to understand but I mentioned it to my colleagues beforehand.

Not long after we had a transman join us for a while to see what our work involved. My colleagues were quite confused about the pronoun situation and asked me to explain.

Everyone was very respectful, no-one mocked them (sorry to disappoint perfectly) and no-one judged the reason for transition (my colleagues are genuinely lovely people) but they were very confused afterwards. They all said that he was clearly female and was married to a woman, therefore was a lesbian woman, but was identifying as a heterosexual man. They couldn't get their head around it

Dammit will you all stop making me laugh I'm trying to have a serious pro trans moment here.

A few thoughts on matters discussed on this thread.
Firstly it is essential that we remember that it is winning the fight for public toilets for women that made it possible for us to participate in the public sphere. A fight that women are still embroiled in some places in the world.

Important to also remember that politicians have a long history of legislating against the interests of women to appease abusive men.

Finally it has been over 100 years ago that Anatole France warned us of the dangers of equality under the law: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges,
to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Regarding perfectly, I do not care who you imagine you are assisting with your mendacity. You have shown us all who you are and I for one will take the advice of Maya Angelou and believe what I have seen.

You're whinging about trans women being laughed at/mocked and then mocking/laughing at women who are concerned about the trans ideology and threats made to those women?

I know you're pissed but you're embarrassing yourself.

And you keep bumping the thread by posting. It will show in active so will attract more attention.

Have another

As a lurker I want to thank you all. I’m appalled that I know so little. I’m reading these threads (and the whole thread) and then googling peoples names and concepts. I don’t know much about feminism. I had no idea what radical feminism is - I thought it meant extreme. I obviously need to do a lot more reading and research but would like to thank you for helping me jump down from the fence and begin to realise the issues. I’ve also been lurking on ‘blue stocking’ pub thread amongst others. I want to do something. I want to help empower women. Where do I start? I feel too uninformed to write to MPs etc. So what can I do please?

I've only read half the thread but I want to pop a comment in to say thank you to all the intelligent articulate measured posters here, your incessant work on behalf of lurkers will always pay off. The story is here for anyone to read. I reached peak trans months ago because of you all and I'm so grateful.

Please write to your MP! I have and I certainly wouldn't consider myself 'well informed'. They represent you. It's a strength in numbers thing, the more people are aware enough to raise with their MP they'll have to actually think about it.

There are several threads on this board that will assist with writing. I just wrote my own letter and mainly concentrated on safeguarding children as that's what I understand and will be confident in discussing when I meet with them.

Radical feminism means that you believe that society needs restructuring for women to be truly equal. But it's become synonymous with gender critical. That's because radical feminists believe that gender is a box women are put in to hold them back and removing gender is part of the radical action required.

What can you do? Firstly, and most importantly, don't ever feel you are too uneducated/uninformed/stupid to express your opinion on this stuff. Your opinion is as valid as that of any other human. Women need to be heard. Be proud to express yourself.

Talk to people, read here, ask questions. Support other women where you can.

Thanks to all the delurkers

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Start here. Definitely write to your MP. We all need to do so. We need to unite as women and raise our very valid concerns.

Is this a good moment to point out that the bra burning thing is a myth too? Or is that a humorless feminist thing to say?

Oooh is it? Pleased to hear that. I always wondered how that worked, I would've knocked someone (or myself) out had I joined in with that

Let me find some evidence - but it was a wild swimming, performance art feminist where that came from - she used visuals to demonstrate the oppression of women... let me google..

Ooh a tardigrade on the thread. I do love a lovely tardigrade.

Ahem! Staying with the animal theme, I've been out in the internet educating myself, on sealions of all things (having seen the term a lot).

Sealioning is the name given to a specific, pervasive form of aggressive cluelessness, that masquerades as a sincere desire to understand. A Sealion is a person who, when confronted with a fact that they don't care to acknowledge, say, the persistence of systemic racism in America, will ask endlessly for "proof" and insist that it is the other person's job to stop everything they are doing and address the issue to their satisfaction.

So now I know and I'm even more tickled it originated from the wonderful, Wondermark.

I am gettin very frustrated I can't find the footage I am after - but in this video you can see that bra burning was done as a visual symbolic act of protest - to sent out a message, rather than because women saw bras as the problem.

Ooh, all the delurkers coming out in support of gender critical feminism! I really feel like part of a movement now. Hi Distaff, I like your username too

Well its pretty hard to come out of lurking as a trans inclusive feminist around here.

I think I want to change my name to Guardian1111 or Gary6666 or Gabrielle 2222

GuardianLions

You cant change the numbers they are fori fact