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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

__

To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
VickyEadie · 31/12/2018 10:38

Blimey, I thought I couldn't get any more GC - and then I read this pile of old shite.

thatdamnwoman · 31/12/2018 10:52

Me too. Entering 2019 terfier than ever.

Have you not got anything more original or persuasive or logical in your armoury, OP, that you have to take something a woman wrote and mangle and distort it until it's a) senseless and b) exposes how much you envy and despise women?

HomeStar · 31/12/2018 11:01

So apparently OP is based on a gender critical post? Does anyone have it? I'd like to read it.

I thought when I was reading OP that it didn't make much sense and that many of the scenarios raised seem more like pro-TERF arguments.

What kind of narcissistic creep thinks you should centre transwomen when their partners are giving birth? It's actually important for women to have a same-sex non-fetishist midwife if they prefer that and if that means trans midwives don't get patients, so be it. OP's scenario with the ageing transwoman father wouldn't ever happen and no one is advocating for it, but on the other side it has been known for trans people with dementia to forget they're trans and find their new bodies very upsetting and confusing. And I'd never raise a male child to be an entitled bully who thinks he should be allowed to beat girls in sports.

Special mention to the ridiculous idea that employers of transwomen factor "time off to recover from transphobic beatings" into their promotion decisions - by that point in the OP I'd sort of figured out what was up.

Anyway, if anyone has the original post that OP is ripping off, I'd like to read it. Even after a TRA with a loose grip on reality transformed it into near-nonsense, it remained an effective GC argument.

Juells · 31/12/2018 11:12

@merrymouse
I'm not sure what the relevance of the jeans and the t-shirt are, but this seems transphobic.

It's implying that in an isolated late-night toilet women should be more afraid of a transman than of a transwoman. Hmm

Amazing, isn't it, how even when accusing everyone else of hating on transwomen, there's no support at all for transwomen, because they're still considered to be that inferior product, a natal woman.

Juells · 31/12/2018 11:12

Meant 'no support for transmen'

groundcontroltomontydon · 31/12/2018 11:12

Is it an insult to be called an animal by someone who probably also thinks a unicorn is an animal? Can't decide.

Juells · 31/12/2018 11:13

They don't even believe their own bollocks, once it's applied to women.

Theinconstantgardener · 31/12/2018 11:18

Entering 2019 terfier than ever
^^
This

Vegilante · 31/12/2018 12:18

HomeStar- I think this is it:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3108929-a-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf

Datun · 31/12/2018 12:27

Vegilante

Sorry! I didn't refresh.

Datun · 31/12/2018 12:27

It's grim how much has come true.

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 12:28

from Vegilante's link above, in full:

carrotandcornsoup wrote, Sun 10-Dec-17 07:01:13
"To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done."

Flowers
HomeStar · 31/12/2018 12:30

Vegilante, thank you, that is such a good post. Chilling and accurate description of where things are headed if this isn't stopped.

At least the chance of averting it looks better in December 2018 than it did in December 2017.

Cheers to the women of Mumsnet. Wine

starcrossedseahorse · 31/12/2018 12:32

So interesting the way the two posters sign off isn't it?

The threat at the end of the TRA post is chilling.

HomeStar · 31/12/2018 12:37

Oh shit I've just realised how much of the stuff that was written there got into the news since December 2017.

So maybe the fightback has gained momentum this year partly because the insanity of what's happening has cranked up several notches? I liked my first reaction to it better. Sad Wine

Is this a case of the original post being super-prescient in exploring thec consequences of trans logic, or is it that all this ridiculous stuff was happening in 2017 too but wasn't getting in to the news?

Juells · 31/12/2018 12:44

Still going back to this paragraph, and trying to make sense of it.
Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

What does it mean [wail] Is the OP trying to say that 'your mother' is actually a transwoman? Does the OP believe that transwomen can bear children? Or am I too thick to understand the point the OP's making?

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 12:47

What does it mean [wail] Is the OP trying to say that 'your mother' is actually a transwoman? Does the OP believe that transwomen can bear children? Or am I too thick to understand the point the OP's making?

I think the OP is describing a 'mother' (Susan) who lived their life as a transwoman but in later life is treated as male (Sam) as per her birth sex.

FloralBunting · 31/12/2018 12:50

I've read that paragraph through a few times, and I think it's describing a scenario where your father transitioned late, you started calling him your mum, (which would be a weird choice for a wicked TERF, but we'll let that pass) and then he got dementia and you, selfish being that you are, got to the stage where he needed to go into a home where everyone called him the wrong name.

I think it's an extra misogynistic slap at the nasty women who don't care for their parents with dementia themselves like women should.

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 12:58

Also no consideration for the other hypothetical older females who the OP would (I presume) be expected to understand and share their space with a male.

terryleather · 31/12/2018 13:00

Interestingly there was something that I read a while back that, iirc, said it's quite common for elderly trans people with dementia to be confused as to why they are (bad phrasing coming up!) "dressed as the opposite of their birth sex" , referred to with a different name from that of their birth etc...sorry that I can't provide a useful link.

And yes, one's elderly father cannot be one's elderly mother - that bit of the OP is Hmm

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 13:09

And yes, one's elderly father cannot be one's elderly mother

There are those who disagree, just as they embrace daughters becoming sons and grandpas becoming grandmas

HomeStar · 31/12/2018 13:11

The bit about the "elderly mother" is so confused all round (she's been living as a woman all her adult life? Did she father the evil TERF as a teenager or does "living as a woman" include siring children now?) but I wanted to highlight this bit:

who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being,

which I think as a PP said is intended to paint the TERF as evil and unsympathetic, but in fact demonstrates that OP believes that people with dementia do not have thoughts and feelings and are not human beings

and seriously, between that and the signoff, what kind of utter psychopath wrote it?

hackmum · 31/12/2018 13:12

carrotandcornsoup's post is brilliant. Is she still on here?

terryleather · 31/12/2018 13:16

They can "embrace" whatever belief they want, doesn't make it a fact.