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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

__

To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
AnotherBewilderedQuoll · 31/12/2018 07:12

Whenever I see some biophobe's claiming "some women have penises", I get this mental image of Aileen Wuornos nailing a few to a tree out the back for target practise.

AncientLights · 31/12/2018 07:18

Aelinor we care about what's between another woman's legs because it might prove that this 'woman' is a man, with the equipment men use to rape us. Males as a class are a danger to females as a class. Some men will use self ID to abuse women. It's already happening - see 'Karen White' and Jonathan Yaniv. Lots of us don't sleep at night, fearful for our and our daughters' futures. Trans women are trans women. Not women.

CaptainBrickbeard · 31/12/2018 08:03

Aelinor’s post really proves how te feminist stance is analytical, evidence based and painstakingly reasoned and explained, whilst the opposing stance is emotive and lacking in robustness or integrity. It relies purely on attempting to guilt and shame women for having boundaries and consequently to get them to shut up. It’s so lazy compared to the infinite effort and patience women in these threads have put in to articulating their viewpoint and concerns.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 31/12/2018 08:15

I don't share your ideology Aelinor. Recognising women as distinct from men, and pointing out their crying need for separate and protected rights based on their biology is no more 'selfish' to me than recongnising and supporting the need for birth control is 'sinful' since I'm also not a Catholic.

I'm not genuflecting at your altar. Transwomen are transwomen, and I will not stand by while women's right are removed and damaged.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 31/12/2018 08:22

Well Aelinor, thank you for bumping this utterly absurd OP to remind us of the worst excesses of the TRA/MRA movement. As if a woman who has just given birth should feel the need to give headspace to a male sitting by the next bed! Childbirth is the one time when it really is all about the woman involved.

But anyway, I do have to let you know I don't care if I'm called selfish and cruel by people who are acting selfishly and cruelly towards me just because I have boundaries and won't - can't - fall for a lie they don't even believe themselves. Those words have no power to shame. However, their abusiveness does harm your own cause.

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 08:37

"Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas"

There is now evidence of the content of training that Mermaids Charity provides to teachers, police, NHS staff as well as directly to some school children It promotes untruths, misrepresents legislation and damages Safeguarding frameworks.

Humans can't change sex.

Times Janice Turner:
'Trans ideologists are spreading cod science
Those who defend controversial charity’s right to a £500,000 lottery grant should really listen to what it is preaching'
(extract)
"Are you a Princess Barbie jelly-baby who likes frilly dresses, high heels and takes ages to get ready? Or a GI Joe jelly-baby who wears boots and functional clothing? Did you know that your preference for pink sparkles or muddy sports isn’t down to societal expectations of boys and girls. No, it’s written in your chromosomes. And that’s science.

Well, science according to Mermaids, the charity for trans children, in a presentation understood to be given to thousands of teachers, health workers, police and politicians, and part-funded by the Department for Education.

I listened to a recording of this bizarre 90-minute training lecture and wish others could too. Particularly those who pride themselves on rationality and evidence-based thinking: atheists, fans of Richard Dawkins and Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science; those incensed by climate change deniers on TV or creationists in schools; the same people who are tweeting #istandwithmermaids because the Big Lottery Fund is reviewing, in the light of an outcry, its decision to award them a £500,000 grant.

On tape the Mermaids trainer tells us that humans don’t come in two sexes, male and female, sperm and ovum: “Most people still think that way,” she says airily. “But what we know now, thanks to advances in science, is that the human race has up to 42 different sets of chromosomes.”

Biological sex is on a spectrum, she says, like skin tone and (seriously) bra size. A person’s “gender identity jelly baby” has nothing to do with how we are raised: it is inside you at birth. You know you are a man because you walk like a man and like “manly” things. A listener questions why this lecture is based upon stereotypes and is told “you’re going too clever”. (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-ideologists-are-spreading-cod-science-m8n0pdbq3?shareToken=3be0ee97d24e2ed7368c913e8c7ee466

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3454658-recording-of-mermaids-training

Transcript of Mermaids teacher training thanks to Michael Conroy & MN transcribing collective (2 parts):
docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/edit?usp=sharing

docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/edit?usp=sharing

Teachers, social workers and especially parents will scrutinise this ideology that is being taught to children as well as the lobbyists who have delivered it

EGAnderson · 31/12/2018 08:48

At least we are only “ fairly cruel selfish people”
Grin

AthenaWhite · 31/12/2018 09:07

Look, we're either princesses OR animals, can't have it both ways. Or are we animal princesses, that's cool. You sound full of rage love, at women who want to keep their rights.

Juells · 31/12/2018 09:07

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

What? I haven't managed to read all the opening screed, but this caught my eye. What's it all about? Why would an elderly woman be called Sam and cared for with the men?

HRTFT so someone may have pointed out already the alarm bells attached to the name Helen, for GC women on facebook.

vaginafetishist · 31/12/2018 09:13

This is a truly dystopian vision OP where everyone, including mother, child, cousin, neighbour in the 'Terf's' life is trans.Hmm

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 09:34

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

A letter to the TERFs
merrymouse · 31/12/2018 09:41

Care homes are usually mixed sex and the occupants have their own rooms. It should be possible to accommodate the particular needs of trans women and women, unless of course you pretend that TWAW and their needs are exactly the same.

Apart from anything else, from a medical point of view treating somebody born male as though they are physically female is likely to kill them.

There is no reason why a carer wouldn't use somebody's preferred name and allow them to express and present themselves as they wish.

merrymouse · 31/12/2018 09:43

she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten

But the 'transphobic' mothers are the problem?

Yes Rowantrees, fair comment in your 9.34 post!

ErrolTheDragon · 31/12/2018 09:57

Bumping this thread once a year for the next 10 or 15 years sounds like a good idea, to track what's actually happening.

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 10:00

Care homes are usually mixed sex and the occupants have their own rooms. It should be possible to accommodate the particular needs of trans women and women, unless of course you pretend that TWAW and their needs are exactly the same.

The more pertinent issue with regards older people in care homes is perhaps that they should still be able to request that intimate care is carried out by those of the same sex, for dignity, privacy and safety.

The consequences of insisting that a male person is a woman and therefore can provide intimate care to females is very concerning, especially so for those women who are especially vulnerable.

cf article from last year about male nurse who did not respect a woman's request for a female HCP to carry out her smear test and the serious failings in NHS policies / training.
inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

lillyputin · 31/12/2018 10:05

Wtf did I just come across here? This does not make any sense on any level.

Alienor, which planet you did you arrive from? Because here, on Earth, humans are split into two sexes and female humans aka women don’t have penises no mater how much you or the OP keep shouting.

SunsetBeetch · 31/12/2018 10:11

I think my terfiness intensified after reading that OP.

Datun · 31/12/2018 10:13

Bumping this thread once a year for the next 10 or 15 years sounds like a good idea, to track what's actually happening.

I was just thinking that.

As the ideology implodes, and people like the individual who is suing about ball waxing, the individual who abuses minimum wage workers and women in shops, the Ian Huntleys, Jess Bradleys and Aimee Chaloners, show it up for the men's rights movement it is, the opening post begins to look even more hollow and deranged than it did originally.

And being called princesses and animals, in turn, really highlights the misogyny and envy.

bellinisurge · 31/12/2018 10:14

I care what is between anyone's legs if they use that organ to hurt me or my daughter. And I can't take a stranger's word for it they won't hurt me with what's between their legs if only they would let me give up spaces set aside to keep me safe with a dignified privacy.

merrymouse · 31/12/2018 10:22

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you.

I'm not sure what the relevance of the jeans and the t-shirt are, but this seems transphobic.

BettyDuMonde · 31/12/2018 10:22

Whenever I see some biophobe's claiming "some women have penises", I get this mental image of Aileen Wuornos nailing a few to a tree out the back for target practise

Genuinely made me LOL.

groundcontroltomontydon · 31/12/2018 10:26

Aelinor, your generosity in seeking to give away the few hard-won rights women have to address the disadvantage and discrimination we suffer because of our biology and your casually dismissive attitude towards the safeguarding of vulnerable and voiceless people can only be described as brave and stunning. You must sleep like a baby in your little bubble of navel-gazing wokeness.
Thanks for the bump - same time next year?

merrymouse · 31/12/2018 10:31

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it.

In the unlikely situation that a board position were designated for a woman, yes, I would like a woman to have the position.

And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once.

Not clear why somebody who engaged in work place bullying of any kind would be promoted in this way - it sounds as though the behaviour could be illegal. However it has nothing to do with another person's eligibility for a particular role.

Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery

There are all sorts of reasons why anyone might need time off to have surgery, but only women specifically need time off because of pregnancy.

MoreCheeseDear · 31/12/2018 10:32

I'm struggling to give a fuck for your self absorbed self pity. The world does not revolve around you, get over it.

Remember me when people laugh at your nonsense.

R0wantrees · 31/12/2018 10:37

In the unlikely situation that a board position were designated for a woman, yes, I would like a woman to have the position.

March 2018 Fairplay For Women article:

'Like A Thief In The Night: The Scottish Bill That Stole The Word Woman'
(extract)
"Last year while we were all looking the other way and distracted by the UK government’s proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act the word woman was stolen from us. It was sneakily done by the Scottish parliament and hidden behind a smoke screen. That smoke screen was The Gender Representation on Public Boards Bill.

The Bill introduced the ‘gender representation objective’ – a target that women should make up 50% of non-executive board membership.

The purpose of this bill was admirable. It was to help women overcome the institutional sexism we suffer due to our sex. Positive action to redress the imbalances that have arisen from centuries of historical disadvantage. It was to acknowledge the reality that institutionalised inequality and sexist attitudes stop most women from reaching their full potential in public life. Financial barriers, income inequality, the gender pay gap, sexist attitudes, gender stereotyping, women’s disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, the undervaluing of women’s paid work, and media portrayals of women, to name but a few influences, all play a role in the sexism that prevents a fair number of women being involved in public life.

But in a cruel twist of irony it was also to be the perfect trojan horse to steal the very meaning of the words woman and female from us.

It all started early last year. The Scottish Government consulted on the draft bill between 5 January 2017 and 13 March 2017. Quietly and without fanfare. Non existent media coverage. No one was that bothered. Only 101 responses to the consultation, 66 from groups or organisation and 35 from individuals. Compare this to the >15000 responses received for the Scottish consultation for reform of the Gender Recognition Act this year. This one slipped by unnoticed.

The draft bill was transgender inclusive and included this:

The “gender representation objective” for a public board is that it has—

(a) 50% of non-executive members who are female or who identify as female, and

(b) 50% of non-executive members who are male or who identify as male.

But this still wasn’t enough for the transgender lobby.

The Scottish Trans Alliance wanted to remove the phrase ‘who are female’ and ‘who are male’, so as not to create a legal difference between those ‘who are’ and those ‘who identify as’ male or female. They got their way. They always do.

Mary Fee MSP (Scottish Labour) proposed an amendment and it was accepted. The Bill was changed to instead simply refer to ‘women’. No mention of those who are female. No mention of the phrase ‘who identify as’. Just the word women. The same word women that the general public know to mean adult females. The same word defined in the Equality Act 2010 as ‘meaning female of any age’.

This was a clever trick. Everyone knows what woman means don’t they. Why would any unsuspecting politician or member of the public be alarmed by a bill that stated on its first page that its objective was to have 50% who are women.

But this definition of woman also included men.

Hidden in the small print of a bill was a few lines of text which undermines everything women have fought for. For thousands of years women have had to struggle for their rights. We’ve had legal equality for a heartbeat in the Western world and now this.

If that wording sounds familiar that’s because it is. It’s basically the exact same wording used in the Equality Act 2010 to define a transsexual person. It is the criteria by which someone falls under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. This is what protects transgender people from being discriminated against because they are trans.

They have replaced that linguistic mouthful ‘for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex‘ to the simple and easy to remember phrase ‘becoming female’.

No longer is that definition a reference to a ‘transsexual person’ but now as if by magic it’s a reference to ‘a woman’. Who was consulted about this? Who agreed to this change? How dare they wipe away the meaning of a word without our informed consent?" (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

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