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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
SquirrelSoShiny · 21/09/2024 18:57

The letter is beautiful.

God the last seven years have not been kind but maybe the tide is finally turning.

Getonwitit · 21/09/2024 19:00

slothface · 10/12/2017 07:38

There are plenty of us who have no issue being examined/cared for/sharing changing rooms or hospitals etc with trans women. I know I personally would have no problem with a straight heterosexual male doing all of the above, let alone a trans woman, and plenty of people feel the same. Please don't assume all women are opposed to the integration of sexes or feel threatened by someone's genitals.

As they would say in Scotland, Aye right !

MarieDeGournay · 21/09/2024 19:44

cardigankitty · 21/09/2024 17:43

hello, I’ve changed my username a few times since 2017 but have written this follow up if anyone wants to read -

https://forwomen.scot/21/09/2024/a-follow-up-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf/

Back in 2017 I could not have imagined how insane things were going to get despite the fact that sadly in my first letter I called some things correctly. I was still naive enough back then to believe that once the people in charge got wind of what was happening they’d step in, not realising that the people in charge cared only for their own reputations and careers and were quite happy, once they saw which way the wind was blowing, to toss us all under a bus. I remember then how scary it was to even slightly question this madness, and it still is, but thank God there are people with a platform now, not least JKR, who are speaking up, and I definitely believe the wheels have come off and the pendulum is swinging back to sanity.

I do lay a lot of blame at the feet of the women who have cheered this on, but also believe that we need every woman we can get on our side, even the ones who have betrayed their own sex so terribly and including the woman who inspired these letters.

Depressingly, I had a vast array of material and examples to choose from while writing this follow up - so I’m sorry if you notice anything you really think I should have included, and haven’t.

I hope that if I do end up writing a letter in 2031 it’ll be a happier one and that the whole edifice will have finally crumbled. Thanks to all the women of Mumsnet who have kept me sane through this in the meantime!

Your follow-up letter is as eloquent and powerful as the first one. Thank you for expressing everything so well, and for staying the course. Flowers

Delphinium20 · 21/09/2024 19:59

Thank you so much. I joined MN in early 2020, pretty much aghast at what was happening and after getting kicked out of Facebook groups for saying men can't turn into women. You've all been such a saving grace for me. Thank you!!!

Ereshkigal · 21/09/2024 20:11

cardigankitty · 21/09/2024 17:43

hello, I’ve changed my username a few times since 2017 but have written this follow up if anyone wants to read -

https://forwomen.scot/21/09/2024/a-follow-up-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf/

Back in 2017 I could not have imagined how insane things were going to get despite the fact that sadly in my first letter I called some things correctly. I was still naive enough back then to believe that once the people in charge got wind of what was happening they’d step in, not realising that the people in charge cared only for their own reputations and careers and were quite happy, once they saw which way the wind was blowing, to toss us all under a bus. I remember then how scary it was to even slightly question this madness, and it still is, but thank God there are people with a platform now, not least JKR, who are speaking up, and I definitely believe the wheels have come off and the pendulum is swinging back to sanity.

I do lay a lot of blame at the feet of the women who have cheered this on, but also believe that we need every woman we can get on our side, even the ones who have betrayed their own sex so terribly and including the woman who inspired these letters.

Depressingly, I had a vast array of material and examples to choose from while writing this follow up - so I’m sorry if you notice anything you really think I should have included, and haven’t.

I hope that if I do end up writing a letter in 2031 it’ll be a happier one and that the whole edifice will have finally crumbled. Thanks to all the women of Mumsnet who have kept me sane through this in the meantime!

Flowers thank you for writing these, both the original and follow up ❤️

duc748 · 21/09/2024 21:14

I was so pleased to see this thread re-surface, cos I remember it, and I thought, this time I'll c & p the OP into a text file, cos that so worth saving. And now there's a follow-up! And as brilliantly written as the first, thank you. I especially liked the penultimate paragraph! 👏👏Flowers

Not that any of this is a cause for rejoicing, obviously.

Keepingcosy · 21/09/2024 22:00

Thank you so much for that amazing letter. It never fails to completely move me, I read it in 2021 on Fair Play for Women website.

I love the blistering follow up and how you nail it again. Yes I often think of the many women in the age of witch trials who dobbed their fellow woman in, and the obvious parallels. At least obvious to those of us with half a brain.

Having come late to the party, I can only imagine how eerie it must have been to see so many things you call in 2017 come to pass. Let's hope for some good predictions eh.

cardigankitty · 22/09/2024 07:45

Thanks everyone - I’m glad you liked the follow up. I’m so angry it had to be written at all and furious that women still can’t meet without being harassed, now with physical attacks as we saw with Posie in Sheffield yesterday. We won’t wheesht though, ever - even if it takes another seven years and more to put an end to this!

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2024 08:24

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2017 09:20

Ally

I'm not ashamed of speaking up for my rights and protecting my boundaries and I never will be. I know this erosion of women's rights is wrong. I'm also raising awareness among other women. I think it's you who should be ashamed of yourself. So you'd best learn to deal with that.

Nope, still not ashamed.

cardigankitty · 22/09/2024 08:33

I was more scared 7 years ago than I am now but I’ve never been ashamed.

Those who champion rapists in women’s prisons, children being mutilated and sterilised, and cheating men battering women in the name of sport, should be thoroughly ashamed, on the other hand.

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2024 08:40

Completely agree @cardigankitty

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/09/2024 08:47

Seven years ago! I stand by every word I wrote on this thread back then. Fortunately I've now left the world of work so no longer need to worry about being told to put pronouns in my email signature or similar.

Grammarnut · 22/09/2024 11:07

MishyJDI · 06/11/2023 10:17

Probably more likely to remember you like history has remembered the same people who stoked fear about de-segregation of colours. You are welcome to that kind of remembrance. This is a human rights struggle - but not of the one you are suggesting. The young generation embrace the change and are driving it. I really only can see positives from that in a polarised world. Odd examples of wrong behaviour, like all, can be dealt with on a 1:1 basis.

Society changes and adapts as history builds. It's a lovely thing IMHO.

Society is being changed by activists and it is erasing women. Not all change is progresive, not all things that appear progressive are good. The Whig view of history (which is what you are invoking) suggests that all change is for the best and that the past is less worthy than the present because we are all going forward to a better world. This is demonstrably not the case for anyone who studies history. Your niavety (if that's what it is) shows a complete lack of understanding of what it would mean for women to have sex specific rights removed. We have been there before - we know. We don't want a repeat performance.

Waitwhat23 · 22/09/2024 11:14

Great update letter, Cardigankitty - really lays it all out very clearly.

I do hope that all the posters (here and elsewhere) who insisted up and down that there were no issues and that women back then raising the alarm were being ridiculous or hysterical (etc etc) are cringing themselves inside out at this point.

cardigankitty · 22/09/2024 12:21

Thanks all. There are quite a few who have gone very quiet in the past wee while. I expect them to pop up soon and pretend that they agreed with us all along.

I’d much prefer a sincere apology and commitment to helping us clean up this mess. The more of us who stand against this, the quicker we can do that.

Catiette · 22/09/2024 20:58

Immensely powerful, @cardigankitty. Thank you for collating this evidence of harms in such a persuasively expressed letter.

MishyJDI · 22/09/2024 21:10

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

My goodness this is so delusional. None of this in reality is likely to happen. Wake up, for goodness sake! No wonder she called you that slur. Get back to normal life. Trans are not the enemy. Misogyny and how women are treated as a class - and yes trans included, is! If that makes me woke, so be it. I wear that with pride.

duc748 · 22/09/2024 21:24

None of this in reality is likely to happen.

Say what now?

lifeinthelastlane · 22/09/2024 21:43

MishyJDI · 22/09/2024 21:10

My goodness this is so delusional. None of this in reality is likely to happen. Wake up, for goodness sake! No wonder she called you that slur. Get back to normal life. Trans are not the enemy. Misogyny and how women are treated as a class - and yes trans included, is! If that makes me woke, so be it. I wear that with pride.

You mean, except for all the things that already have happened? Do you live under a rock?

Waitwhat23 · 22/09/2024 22:00

I'm going to be charitable and assume that there has been a rip in the time/space continuum and a post of Mishy's from 2017 has somehow (belatedly) made it through.

Because otherwise....yikes.

duc748 · 22/09/2024 22:02

That's definitely more plausible! 😀

ellenback21 · 22/09/2024 22:11

Waitwhat23 · 22/09/2024 22:00

I'm going to be charitable and assume that there has been a rip in the time/space continuum and a post of Mishy's from 2017 has somehow (belatedly) made it through.

Because otherwise....yikes.

De-lurking just to say that is the funniest comment I have read all week😂

cardigankitty · 23/09/2024 08:07

Did you read the follow up Mishy? In it I give examples, including links, that show sadly my first letter was anything but delusional.

Waitwhat 😂

Mmmnotsure · 23/09/2024 10:11

MishyJDI · 22/09/2024 21:10

My goodness this is so delusional. None of this in reality is likely to happen. Wake up, for goodness sake! No wonder she called you that slur. Get back to normal life. Trans are not the enemy. Misogyny and how women are treated as a class - and yes trans included, is! If that makes me woke, so be it. I wear that with pride.

@MishyJDI

AI ?
Difficult to think of another explanation.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 10:15

My goodness this is so delusional. None of this in reality is likely to happen. Wake up, for goodness sake! No wonder she called you that slur. Get back to normal life. Trans are not the enemy. Misogyny and how women are treated as a class - and yes trans included, is! If that makes me woke, so be it. I wear that with pride.

Hilarious. But nice to see you acknowledge it as the slur it is.

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