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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Waitwhat23 · 05/11/2023 19:23

I have seen this shared on Twitter today so thought I would bump it here. What an eloquent, prescient piece of writing.

Abhannmor · 06/11/2023 08:42

Yes , was 2017 the height of this madness? Not that long in the scheme of things, although it seems to have been going on forever.

Abhannmor · 06/11/2023 09:05

Well I just checked and Angela Nagles brilliant book Kill All Normies was indeed published in 2017. But the culture it describes - Internet culture wars , cancelling etc - is traced back further in the book. Back to around 2010 /11 with Occupy , Arab spring and other movements. The alt-right on 4Chan.

The first part of the book us a dissection of the alt right while the second focuses on the left. I'm going to re read it.

persistentwoman · 06/11/2023 09:13

It's a wonderful letter. Tragic that it still applies and that so many more young women have been harmed by all this.

Ofcourseshecan · 06/11/2023 09:56

RestingGrinchFace · 10/12/2017 11:48

You are overreacting and you don't seem to understand the concept of hate speech. While I appreciate where you are coming from things like this risk gender critical women being branded as hysterical. This kind of outpouring doesn't help anyone. If you want people to take you seriously you need to make a rational argument, not an emotive one. There are many rational arguments to be made on this front, sone you have hinted at such as the threat to women's safety posed by self identification, the erosion of positive discrimination policies, the metaphysical argument for gender and sex and, the erosion of the female sex as a gender. Find a way to express these thoughts without catastrophising or relying on emotive pleas and you may actually be able to render a service unto your sex rather than attracting and justifying claims of bigotry.

Excellent example of the opposition women face when we speak up.

All the scenarios OP described have already happened and been widely reported in mainstream news media. A few minutes googling provides plenty of evidence from court cases.
Plus others such as the woman raped in a women’s ward, who had to take action to force the hospital trust to stop denying the rape had happened and admit (after about a year) that a transwoman had been on the ward.

But women must be prevented from saying things that might embarrass men? No. To hell with that cowardly appeasement.

We have to keep publicising the facts and rational arguments too. But our anger is justified and the OP makes a powerful case.

MishyJDI · 06/11/2023 10:17

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

Probably more likely to remember you like history has remembered the same people who stoked fear about de-segregation of colours. You are welcome to that kind of remembrance. This is a human rights struggle - but not of the one you are suggesting. The young generation embrace the change and are driving it. I really only can see positives from that in a polarised world. Odd examples of wrong behaviour, like all, can be dealt with on a 1:1 basis.

Society changes and adapts as history builds. It's a lovely thing IMHO.

JeanRondeausMadHair · 06/11/2023 10:35

Another absolutely useless, disengaged post from this poster. No arguments, just mindless slogans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 10:37

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 18:42

I don't blame you at all blackdog. I think it will be hard for my MP to patronise me, dismiss my feelings and handwave away my fears if I go into detail about my situation then. I think it will be difficult for him to say to my face that he doesn't care.

How naive I was about this! Luckily for him, he got around having to pretend to care by never acknowledging my letter when I wrote to him.

Beowulfa · 06/11/2023 11:03

Thanks Mishy for reminding us that your arguments still have no substance 6 years later.

SinnerBoy · 06/11/2023 13:00

Hmm. Them reads a long, eloquent and passionate piece of writing and they concludes:

You're horrid! And you smell of wee! So nerrRRR!

Grammarnut · 06/11/2023 13:17

Oh, it's Mishy, whose vocabulary is a bit stunted as is their understanding of the issues. Be like Shakespeare, take no notice.

ZeldaFighter · 06/11/2023 14:19

I'm pleased for Mishy. Mishy has determination and is in it for the long haul. If someone had continually told me I was wrong for six years, I might have doubted myself and listened to the opposing arguments (unless it's my husband 😉 ) but Mishy just keeps on trucking!

ZeldaFighter · 06/11/2023 14:21

ZeldaFighter · 06/11/2023 14:19

I'm pleased for Mishy. Mishy has determination and is in it for the long haul. If someone had continually told me I was wrong for six years, I might have doubted myself and listened to the opposing arguments (unless it's my husband 😉 ) but Mishy just keeps on trucking!

Oops, just realised Mishy posted today. Forget my above post, Mishy is just a Johnny-Come-Lately.

Slothtoes · 06/11/2023 14:37

i hope this brilliant open letter will be picked up as an opinion piece in a national paper. Look how many people are engaging with it on here. People want and need to be able to talk about this fundamental threat to women’s rights.

Ofcourseshecan · 06/11/2023 16:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 10:37

How naive I was about this! Luckily for him, he got around having to pretend to care by never acknowledging my letter when I wrote to him.

Sickening but not unusual. I had the same with my MP. I don’t think they read most letters. We still have to try ….

Waitwhat23 · 06/11/2023 18:05

MishyJDI · 06/11/2023 10:17

Probably more likely to remember you like history has remembered the same people who stoked fear about de-segregation of colours. You are welcome to that kind of remembrance. This is a human rights struggle - but not of the one you are suggesting. The young generation embrace the change and are driving it. I really only can see positives from that in a polarised world. Odd examples of wrong behaviour, like all, can be dealt with on a 1:1 basis.

Society changes and adapts as history builds. It's a lovely thing IMHO.

Your ideology doesn't stand up to scrutiny which is why, now no debate is no more, your house of cards is falling so spectacularly.

popebishop · 06/11/2023 18:54

@MishyJDI , I have asked you this before, but oddly, you haven't replied.

When you compare acknowledging the greater physical risk posed by males to "segregation", which race is it that you believe are the equivalent of "male" in this comparison, in carrying out nearly all sexual assaults ever recorded?

ArabellaScott · 06/11/2023 19:54

Odd examples of wrong behaviour, like all, can be dealt with on a 1:1 basis.

Wow, an argument for the abolition of all laws. You don't see that very often in the wild.

Brainworm · 12/11/2023 10:14

"The young generation embrace the change and are driving it"

This is no longer the case and is becoming less so at quite a rapid rate.

In schools, young people are becoming less and less accepting as they are confronted by people demanding privilege and special treatment due to their trans identities. What they encounter is a far cry from what they had in mind when being keyboard warriors for this 'most of most marginalised' groups.

The same thing happens in the workplace. The LGBT+ advocacy groups go from being centred in every decision making process to screaming into the void when the HR team encounter yet another demand for a 'reasonable adjustment' that involves carpeting the stairs because the support pet has arthritis and the floor hurts its feet.

What this means is that those who experience distress from gender dysphoria and those who experience distress trying to fit in with gender norms are left in a worse position than they were 10 years ago. All because the narcissists and personality disordered tried to take over.

cardigankitty · 21/09/2024 17:43

hello, I’ve changed my username a few times since 2017 but have written this follow up if anyone wants to read -

https://forwomen.scot/21/09/2024/a-follow-up-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf/

Back in 2017 I could not have imagined how insane things were going to get despite the fact that sadly in my first letter I called some things correctly. I was still naive enough back then to believe that once the people in charge got wind of what was happening they’d step in, not realising that the people in charge cared only for their own reputations and careers and were quite happy, once they saw which way the wind was blowing, to toss us all under a bus. I remember then how scary it was to even slightly question this madness, and it still is, but thank God there are people with a platform now, not least JKR, who are speaking up, and I definitely believe the wheels have come off and the pendulum is swinging back to sanity.

I do lay a lot of blame at the feet of the women who have cheered this on, but also believe that we need every woman we can get on our side, even the ones who have betrayed their own sex so terribly and including the woman who inspired these letters.

Depressingly, I had a vast array of material and examples to choose from while writing this follow up - so I’m sorry if you notice anything you really think I should have included, and haven’t.

I hope that if I do end up writing a letter in 2031 it’ll be a happier one and that the whole edifice will have finally crumbled. Thanks to all the women of Mumsnet who have kept me sane through this in the meantime!

A follow up letter to the woman who called me a TERF - For Women Scotland

We are delighted to publish this guest post from Caroline - seven years on, she writes a follow up letter to the original Letter to the woman who called me a TERF.

https://forwomen.scot/21/09/2024/a-follow-up-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf

cardigankitty · 21/09/2024 17:44

Ps thanks to the amazing For Women Scotland for all of their help with this!

persistentwoman · 21/09/2024 18:14

Wow. Thank you for that depressingly accurate first letter - and thank you for this follow up and being able to offer a hand to all those powerful women giving away the rights of women and girls.
It can be hard to focus on the positive at times but thank you for reminding me of the power and compassion that women can have - even as we face such awful disheartening times.
Flowers

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 21/09/2024 18:19

slothface · 10/12/2017 07:38

There are plenty of us who have no issue being examined/cared for/sharing changing rooms or hospitals etc with trans women. I know I personally would have no problem with a straight heterosexual male doing all of the above, let alone a trans woman, and plenty of people feel the same. Please don't assume all women are opposed to the integration of sexes or feel threatened by someone's genitals.

Sod off 🤬🤬🤬

Tallisker · 21/09/2024 18:36

Thank you for both letters. I started to become aware of this madness in 2017, and if I'd known about the Edinburgh meeting I would have been there.

I remember coming across your first letter on here - it explained the madness so beautifully. But who would believe it? And yet almost all of it has come to pass.

RedToothBrush · 21/09/2024 18:48

Well there's a lot of posts in this thread from 7 years ago that haven't aged well.

Even ones from less than a year ago are not aging well.

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