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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 12:48

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:45

I was joking there! No offense to our furry friends, but I think "people" is probably fine, generally.

It's a perfectly valid point. If a furry objects to being called a 'person' or 'people' then should the term not be used?

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 12:49

All women are "gender diverse". No one is a perfect walking stereotype of women in whatever culture they're in, are they?

... it has nothing to do with whether you conform to stereotypes. It’s about how you identify, which is deeply personal and not about society’s construction of gender.

What is it that people are identifying with?

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:49

Of course identity is linked to culture and cultural ideas about gender, and conforming or not to sex-based stereotypes that ideas about gender arise from.

Referring to "pregnant people" to avoid upset to a tiny tiny minority of women who may not identify as female, is unnecessary when speaking in general terms. It also deliberately erases any mention of women from pregnancy, which has the effect of making the words woman/women unsayable, as offensive to a section of society who are considered very much more important than anyone else, in this gender ideological worldview.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:50

I’ve actually seen that argument before online, and I find it disingenuous, so I don’t really want to get into it. But obviously, trans and gender-diverse people have existed across all societies since the dawn of civilization, while being transracial is not a real thing.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:53

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:49

Of course identity is linked to culture and cultural ideas about gender, and conforming or not to sex-based stereotypes that ideas about gender arise from.

Referring to "pregnant people" to avoid upset to a tiny tiny minority of women who may not identify as female, is unnecessary when speaking in general terms. It also deliberately erases any mention of women from pregnancy, which has the effect of making the words woman/women unsayable, as offensive to a section of society who are considered very much more important than anyone else, in this gender ideological worldview.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsensical. Healthcare providers using the word "person" does not make "woman" unsayable or erase it from the language!

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:55

It is literally unsayable, because HCPs and organisations like the BBC are not saying "women", that's the whole point. They are saying "people" every time instead of women, when they are talking in general terms not about specific women who don't identify with being female. That's pretty much what unsayable means.

Also, I didn't say it was erased from the language, I said it was being removed from any discussion about pregnancy.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:58

endofthelinefinally · 23/09/2024 12:33

I am perfectly comfortable with my male GP. However, if he turned up in a dress, high heels, a wig and make up, like "Pips" Bunce, I would be extremely uncomfortable.
Male midwives are a different kettle of fish. I was a midwife for many years and I am not completely comfortable with that. There is an intimacy in midwifery specifically during labour, that I feel needs the right person. For me that is a woman.

Sorry, are you suggesting that neither trans women nor men should be allowed to wear dresses, high heels, or wigs? And that men shouldn’t be allowed to be midwives? Talk about forcing gender conformity—not to mention illegal discrimination!

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 12:58

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 12:49

All women are "gender diverse". No one is a perfect walking stereotype of women in whatever culture they're in, are they?

... it has nothing to do with whether you conform to stereotypes. It’s about how you identify, which is deeply personal and not about society’s construction of gender.

What is it that people are identifying with?

Yes, I'd like the answer to this too.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 12:59

Sorry, are you suggesting that neither trans women nor men

They are the same thing.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 13:01

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 12:58

Yes, I'd like the answer to this too.

This is a complex question, and as a cis woman, I’m not the best equipped to answer it. I respect other people's identities.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:02

There is no such thing as a "cis woman". It's a genderist jargon term. Women are female.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:03

Male people are men and boys, regardless of their claimed personal identity.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 13:04

"I respect other people's identities."

It's beyond respect though. I can respect that someone has a deep-felt belief in their identity. It's not disrespectful to disagree with them and to know that their identity does not agree with reality. I don't have to agree with them that because of their identity, they now are the thing they believe themselves to be, and that I must act accordingly. The same is true for any deeply held belief that anyone else holds, whether it's about identity or anything else.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:06

Genderism is a quasi religious belief, as we can see. You're entitled to hold any religious belief you wish, @Lady1ntheLake - you aren't entitled to impose it on others, or expect them to pretend they share it.

FranticFrankie · 23/09/2024 13:07

But they’re still women!!!!

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 13:08

It's not a religious belief to think that women are people, or that politeness costs nothing!

In fact I was raised to believe that thinking women were people was at the heart of feminism!

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:08

Having to pretend to believe that men are women costs women dearly.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:09

And yes, your ideological worldview is like any religious belief that compels adherence and punishes non believers @Lady1ntheLake

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 13:13

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 13:08

It's not a religious belief to think that women are people, or that politeness costs nothing!

In fact I was raised to believe that thinking women were people was at the heart of feminism!

Edited

You're shifting goalposts here. No one is disagreeing that women are people. We are discussing pregnancy, and that all pregnant people are women (adult, human, female). No one has said they would be impolite to anyone either.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:14

You're shifting goalposts here. No one is disagreeing that women are people.

It's a very familiar argument. Perhaps @Lady1ntheLake reads a lot of TRA blogs and Twitter posts.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:15

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 13:04

"I respect other people's identities."

It's beyond respect though. I can respect that someone has a deep-felt belief in their identity. It's not disrespectful to disagree with them and to know that their identity does not agree with reality. I don't have to agree with them that because of their identity, they now are the thing they believe themselves to be, and that I must act accordingly. The same is true for any deeply held belief that anyone else holds, whether it's about identity or anything else.

This, exactly.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 13:18

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 13:13

You're shifting goalposts here. No one is disagreeing that women are people. We are discussing pregnancy, and that all pregnant people are women (adult, human, female). No one has said they would be impolite to anyone either.

Well, we disagree on the definition of a woman. Not everyone agrees with your definition, especially not recently.

endofthelinefinally · 23/09/2024 13:20

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:58

Sorry, are you suggesting that neither trans women nor men should be allowed to wear dresses, high heels, or wigs? And that men shouldn’t be allowed to be midwives? Talk about forcing gender conformity—not to mention illegal discrimination!

No. I am not saying any of that at all. I am saying that I, personally, would not be comfortable if my male GP turned up at his place of work, where he was possibly going to expect me to be undressed, wearing the costume I described.
If I was in labour I would not be comfortable with a male midwife. I believe women should have choice about intimate care.
Your post is a massive over reaction and misinterpretation of what I actually said.
Are you saying that women should be forced to accept intimate care from men whether they feel safe and comfortable or not?

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:20

Women are people. Women are biologically female. Female people are women and girls. Women and girls matter.

Read the OP and see how many of those things have become reality.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 13:20

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

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