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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
endofthelinefinally · 23/09/2024 10:27

Ofcourseshecan · 06/11/2023 16:25

Sickening but not unusual. I had the same with my MP. I don’t think they read most letters. We still have to try ….

The letters are read by the interns in the office first. It is probable that some never get as far as the MP. A relative did an internship some years ago, on leaving university and was pretty unimpressed with what they observed.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 10:37

I don’t totally get all of this. I’m pregnant, and honestly, as both a person and an individual, I’m happy to be called either. No big deal there.

Also, my male midwife is fantastic! His female predecessor was notorious in our town for being just awful—mean, unprofessional, rude, you name it. Not to mention, she was way behind the times when it came to social attitudes and clinical knowledge. People used to go to neighbouring towns’ health centres just to avoid her when they got pregnant! I was really dreading my first appointment, but when I saw the confirmation and it was a man’s name, I was so relieved! Didn’t have to deal with her, thank goodness.

This male midwife? He’s so polite, super courteous, and really on top of monitoring my high-risk pregnancy. He’s up to date with all the latest research, and he doesn’t have any of the sexist attitudes his female predecessor was all too comfortable sharing with patients.

I’ve also got two OBs, since I haven’t picked which hospital to deliver at yet. One’s a man and the other’s a woman. I can’t imagine making that decision based on gender in the end, though. I mean, why would I risk my health and my baby’s just to pick someone based on whether they’re a man or a woman? That’s nuts!

Look, I believe trans women are women, and it’s just wild to suggest that using inclusive language or receiving care from either a man or a trans woman during pregnancy or childbirth is somehow traumatic or dehumanizing.

I know some religious women might prefer care from women only (I’m not sure how they view trans women, but we shouldn’t be encouraging discrimination). But really, that’s not the norm. This whole letter makes women out to be fragile and irrational, which is just ridiculous. As a feminist and a mom-to-be, I’m not on board with that at all!

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 10:46

The letters are read by the interns in the office first. It is probable that some never get as far as the MP. A relative did an internship some years ago, on leaving university and was pretty unimpressed with what they observed.

Yes I assume that's what probably happened.

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 10:48

endofthelinefinally · 23/09/2024 10:27

The letters are read by the interns in the office first. It is probable that some never get as far as the MP. A relative did an internship some years ago, on leaving university and was pretty unimpressed with what they observed.

My MP has long since ceased responding to letters. Seems that some consider constituents an irritating inconvenience.

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 10:56

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 10:37

I don’t totally get all of this. I’m pregnant, and honestly, as both a person and an individual, I’m happy to be called either. No big deal there.

Also, my male midwife is fantastic! His female predecessor was notorious in our town for being just awful—mean, unprofessional, rude, you name it. Not to mention, she was way behind the times when it came to social attitudes and clinical knowledge. People used to go to neighbouring towns’ health centres just to avoid her when they got pregnant! I was really dreading my first appointment, but when I saw the confirmation and it was a man’s name, I was so relieved! Didn’t have to deal with her, thank goodness.

This male midwife? He’s so polite, super courteous, and really on top of monitoring my high-risk pregnancy. He’s up to date with all the latest research, and he doesn’t have any of the sexist attitudes his female predecessor was all too comfortable sharing with patients.

I’ve also got two OBs, since I haven’t picked which hospital to deliver at yet. One’s a man and the other’s a woman. I can’t imagine making that decision based on gender in the end, though. I mean, why would I risk my health and my baby’s just to pick someone based on whether they’re a man or a woman? That’s nuts!

Look, I believe trans women are women, and it’s just wild to suggest that using inclusive language or receiving care from either a man or a trans woman during pregnancy or childbirth is somehow traumatic or dehumanizing.

I know some religious women might prefer care from women only (I’m not sure how they view trans women, but we shouldn’t be encouraging discrimination). But really, that’s not the norm. This whole letter makes women out to be fragile and irrational, which is just ridiculous. As a feminist and a mom-to-be, I’m not on board with that at all!

Many women here may well have once been in similar positions of ignorance, although some of your comments tbh go beyond clueless and crash right into offensive and crass.

Unfortunately life experience has taught many of us that things are far more complex than pat declarations of 'Inclusivity' would tend to suggest.

Wishing you all the very best with your pregnancy. Plenty of support and info on MN for all stages of motherhood, as it unfolds.

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 10:59

Many women here may well have once been in similar positions of ignorance, although some of your comments tbh go beyond clueless and crash right into offensive and crass.

Or "disingenuous"

FranticFrankie · 23/09/2024 11:20

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 10:37

I don’t totally get all of this. I’m pregnant, and honestly, as both a person and an individual, I’m happy to be called either. No big deal there.

Also, my male midwife is fantastic! His female predecessor was notorious in our town for being just awful—mean, unprofessional, rude, you name it. Not to mention, she was way behind the times when it came to social attitudes and clinical knowledge. People used to go to neighbouring towns’ health centres just to avoid her when they got pregnant! I was really dreading my first appointment, but when I saw the confirmation and it was a man’s name, I was so relieved! Didn’t have to deal with her, thank goodness.

This male midwife? He’s so polite, super courteous, and really on top of monitoring my high-risk pregnancy. He’s up to date with all the latest research, and he doesn’t have any of the sexist attitudes his female predecessor was all too comfortable sharing with patients.

I’ve also got two OBs, since I haven’t picked which hospital to deliver at yet. One’s a man and the other’s a woman. I can’t imagine making that decision based on gender in the end, though. I mean, why would I risk my health and my baby’s just to pick someone based on whether they’re a man or a woman? That’s nuts!

Look, I believe trans women are women, and it’s just wild to suggest that using inclusive language or receiving care from either a man or a trans woman during pregnancy or childbirth is somehow traumatic or dehumanizing.

I know some religious women might prefer care from women only (I’m not sure how they view trans women, but we shouldn’t be encouraging discrimination). But really, that’s not the norm. This whole letter makes women out to be fragile and irrational, which is just ridiculous. As a feminist and a mom-to-be, I’m not on board with that at all!

Good for you - but you do not speak for all women.
‘Inclusive’ language is de-humanising and in maternity/obstetrics it becomes exclusive- excluding the very sex that gives birth: WOMEN however they choose to identify. Some women are unable to voice concerns so it has to be done for them
As said before many times on here; all women’s rights are not yours to give away

Ereshkigal · 23/09/2024 11:24

I think there are threads about all the hypothetical situations in the OP happening by now.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 11:37

FranticFrankie · 23/09/2024 11:20

Good for you - but you do not speak for all women.
‘Inclusive’ language is de-humanising and in maternity/obstetrics it becomes exclusive- excluding the very sex that gives birth: WOMEN however they choose to identify. Some women are unable to voice concerns so it has to be done for them
As said before many times on here; all women’s rights are not yours to give away

How is it dehumanizing to refer to people as people? “People” is just another word for humans—it’s literally the opposite of dehumanizing! Most people who get pregnant are women, sure. But some are trans men, non-binary, or other genders. Including them doesn’t take anything away from women!

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 11:40

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 10:56

Many women here may well have once been in similar positions of ignorance, although some of your comments tbh go beyond clueless and crash right into offensive and crass.

Unfortunately life experience has taught many of us that things are far more complex than pat declarations of 'Inclusivity' would tend to suggest.

Wishing you all the very best with your pregnancy. Plenty of support and info on MN for all stages of motherhood, as it unfolds.

Thank you for your good wishes!

FranticFrankie · 23/09/2024 11:48

We don’t need another word for women thanks
only women can get pregnant and it’s unfair to women to say ‘people’ instead!!
I feel it’s vitally important not to impose ideology on women who either don’t understand it or don’t want it.
Oh - forgot to wish you all the very best for your pregnancy ; enjoy!!

cardigankitty · 23/09/2024 12:08

It’s the idea that the word ‘woman’ is offensive that is the problem Ladyinthelake, because that’s what is driving this nonsense and the move to say ‘people’. I’m not offended by being called a person. I AM offended and furious if you’re calling me a person because you’re treating the word woman as if it’s a swear word that must not be said.

It’s great your male midwife is nice but I’d encourage you to look beyond your own experience to that of other women who would prefer not to be cared for by a man.

Best of luck with your pregnancy!

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:09

FranticFrankie · 23/09/2024 11:48

We don’t need another word for women thanks
only women can get pregnant and it’s unfair to women to say ‘people’ instead!!
I feel it’s vitally important not to impose ideology on women who either don’t understand it or don’t want it.
Oh - forgot to wish you all the very best for your pregnancy ; enjoy!!

But "people" isn’t another word for women—it’s a word for all humans, including women! How can it possibly be dehumanizing to call women people? Most people who get pregnant are women, but some are trans, non-binary, or other genders. Including them doesn’t take anything away from me. I'm a woman and a person! Calling me a person doesn’t change my identity.

Thank you for your good wishes. I’m super excited and loving every minute!

duc748 · 23/09/2024 12:12

Most people who get pregnant are women

They are all women. Every last one of them. As I'm sure you know.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:14

All people who get pregnant are women. How they identify is irrelevant to their sex. A women = adult, human female. "Gender identity" is clearly a feeling, a belief, an identity. Not to do with one's physical body, and not universal.

Myalternate · 23/09/2024 12:14

Most people who get pregnant are women…

Only females can get pregnant. It doesn’t matter how someone identifies, if they’re pregnant, they are female.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:15

cardigankitty · 23/09/2024 12:08

It’s the idea that the word ‘woman’ is offensive that is the problem Ladyinthelake, because that’s what is driving this nonsense and the move to say ‘people’. I’m not offended by being called a person. I AM offended and furious if you’re calling me a person because you’re treating the word woman as if it’s a swear word that must not be said.

It’s great your male midwife is nice but I’d encourage you to look beyond your own experience to that of other women who would prefer not to be cared for by a man.

Best of luck with your pregnancy!

No one’s saying there’s anything wrong with the word "woman." It just doesn’t include people who don’t identify that way. It’s like saying "Happy Holidays!"—it doesn’t make you anti-Christian. It simply includes those who celebrate all holidays, including Christmas.

And thank you 😊

duc748 · 23/09/2024 12:19

No one’s saying there’s anything wrong with the word "woman." It just doesn’t include people who don’t identify that way.

It does include them, though, because they are women. There may be some natal women who dislike the term for whatever reason, but whether they like it or not, that is what they are.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:20

Pregnant people all have female reproductive systems, sure. But why call gender-diverse people women if it offends and upsets them? Pregnancy can be difficult for many, so why cause unnecessary distress when there’s an easy workaround? No one is saying you aren’t a woman!

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:24

All women are "gender diverse". No one is a perfect walking stereotype of women in whatever culture they're in, are they?

Call women who identify as something other than female whatever stops them from being psychologically distressed, but in general, there is no need to stop calling every other woman a woman.

endofthelinefinally · 23/09/2024 12:33

I am perfectly comfortable with my male GP. However, if he turned up in a dress, high heels, a wig and make up, like "Pips" Bunce, I would be extremely uncomfortable.
Male midwives are a different kettle of fish. I was a midwife for many years and I am not completely comfortable with that. There is an intimacy in midwifery specifically during labour, that I feel needs the right person. For me that is a woman.

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:39

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/09/2024 12:24

All women are "gender diverse". No one is a perfect walking stereotype of women in whatever culture they're in, are they?

Call women who identify as something other than female whatever stops them from being psychologically distressed, but in general, there is no need to stop calling every other woman a woman.

Of course healthcare providers can use "woman" for individual women, once they know how they identify. But for all pregnant people collectively, "people" is an accurate term that can’t possibly be offensive—maybe to a furry? As for your first point, it has nothing to do with whether you conform to stereotypes. It’s about how you identify, which is deeply personal and not about society’s construction of gender.

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 12:40

So what do we call 'people' if the term is offensive to furries?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/09/2024 12:42

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:20

Pregnant people all have female reproductive systems, sure. But why call gender-diverse people women if it offends and upsets them? Pregnancy can be difficult for many, so why cause unnecessary distress when there’s an easy workaround? No one is saying you aren’t a woman!

Spell it out for us, @Lady1ntheLake. Here are two scenarios. In one case you want us to go along with the person's request. In the other I'm guessing you wouldn't. What's the difference? In both cases the person making the request has either lost touch with reality or is telling a lie. Why is one fiction more important than reality and the other one isn't?

A: A woman, i.e. an adult human female, announces 'I identify as male. I want you to use male pronouns if you need to refer to me other than by name.'

B: A white person announces 'I identify as Black. I am applying for a job that's reserved for BAME people.'

Lady1ntheLake · 23/09/2024 12:45

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2024 12:40

So what do we call 'people' if the term is offensive to furries?

I was joking there! No offense to our furry friends, but I think "people" is probably fine, generally.

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