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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
CosmicCanary · 14/12/2017 09:07

Your post is patronising Perfect

The OP is not whipping up hate.

It is clear and well thought out.
The trans ideology is all about erasing females.

I will not stand side by side with a cult that pushes the abuse of children.

perfectlywretched · 14/12/2017 09:08

Tammy I 100% agree with you. I just feel opinions like ours are being shouted down by 'nobody born with a penis can ever be a woman, men in dresses are out to get us' (ie the OP) which is unproductive and scaremongering

Datun · 14/12/2017 09:12

perfectlywretched

But there are already examples, very many of them, of what the OP is talking about.

I don’t understand how you can reconcile the opinion that it is scaremongering, with the fact that it is happening.

perfectlywretched · 14/12/2017 09:12

Cosmic: 'I will not stand side by side with a cult that pushes the abuse of children.'

This is exactly the kind or ridiculous statement from camp 1 that shows you up as being driven by fear and hate. It's hardly surprising the trans activists are protesting. How is that going to achieve anything.

carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 09:16

Perfectly, I don’t even know where to start with how you have deliberately misinterpreted and misconstrued my words and turned a piece that illustrates my - and many other women’s- genuine fears about the future for women, into a piece of hateful propaganda. None of the scenarios I described are extreme. Most of them are already happening either in the UK or elsewhere such as Canada. I believe wholeheartedly that trans people deserve the rights that are afforded to all other citizens but because I have my eyes and ears and mind open I can see quite clearly the massive damage that the advance of trans rights will do to women’s rights. I wrote the piece to illustrate that to women in Mumsnet who might not be aware. And judging by the responses on here, I have managed to do that. Please take the time to critically examine the issues around trans rights and women’s rights and do the intellectual hard labour that the amazing women in this board have done.

OP posts:
BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 09:20

Have you read any of Red's posts on cult behaviour, in other threads? They're rather interesting.

MentholBreeze · 14/12/2017 09:21

Camp 1: Nobody born with a penis can be a woman, transgender doesn’t exist, it’s the new self harm, it’s bearded men in dresses, it’s rapists lurking in female toilets, being biologically male and identifying as female is like believing in Father Christmas. Here, have a fucking biscuit.

Can you point out one feminist that thinks this? Because frankly, I think they don't exist, and it's actually 2 for the vast majority, and have a fucking biscuit because what you've said clearly means you haven't bothered to listen to what we've been saying (but then we're used to that - hence type 3)

Datun · 14/12/2017 09:22

perfectlywretched

Have you heard of Jazz Jennings?

Jazz Jennings is the poster child for transgenderism. He has a TV show and earns millions for himself and his family.

His mother said she knew when he was five that he was really a girl. Because he wanted to wear a tutu.

He was put on puberty blockers at age 11 (his choice, apparently).

He was then given cross sex hormones.

It’s now 17. He has the face of a girl, the body of a woman and the genitals of a prepubescent boy.

Despite being prescribed these drugs, it has come as a surprise to his doctors that there is now not enough penile material to create a neovagina.

They pointed to his breasts and said the drugs have done you a huge favour there, then pointed to his groin, and said but not down there.

They will need to create a neovagina from either his colon or skin from his torso.

At 17, Jazz has never had an erection. He has no sexual function. He is permanently sterile. He will be on drugs for the rest of his life.

His genitalia will not be sexually responsive, as there is nothing to work with. It will be purely cosmetic.

Should he decide to go ahead, he will need to dilate his neo vagina for the rest of his life to stop it healing up. If he doesn’t go ahead, he has a micropenis that has never become erect.

But, he is the poster child for everything trans. Feted and celebrated.

Jazz suffers from depression.

Datun · 14/12/2017 09:23

And don’t forget, this was his decision, made when he was at primary school.

It can only ever be the ‘childs decision’. Remember that.

MentholBreeze · 14/12/2017 09:24

This is exactly the kind or ridiculous statement from camp 1 that shows you up as being driven by fear and hate. It's hardly surprising the trans activists are protesting. How is that going to achieve anything.

What the fuck do you call sterilising children (because that's what happens if you go straight from puberty blockers to cross-sex hormones)? And that's without even talking about the dangers of puberty blockers, which in every other situation are recognised to be a last resort because of the damage they do, and are justified by transactivists because 'better a trans child than a dead child' despite there being no supporting evidence for that statement.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 09:24

No sexual function. So Jazz's neovagina will literally be a hole for being fucked - Jazz will get nothing from it.
That's not misogynistic at all, is it :(

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 09:29

You are not listening perfectly

Not at all

(Should probably say reading there...)

PricklyBall · 14/12/2017 09:36

No-one with a penis can be a woman. Well, no they can't. That's basic biology. Damn those biological facts for being so transphobic.

People with penises can very sincerely wish they had been born women, to the extent that they suffer considerable dysphoria and this dysphoria can be alleviated by presenting socially as a woman according to the culturally constructed ideas of what constitutes femininity that our culture supplies. If this makes them feel better, I am all for that. I want them to have rights to employment (barring the tiny, tiny fraction of jobs or roles within jobs in which biological sex actually matters - e.g. being a peer rape counsellor for women who have asked to talk to another woman about their experiences, being a police or prison officer who carries out intimate cavity searches). I want them to have rights to housing. I want them to live their lives free from harrassment.

But I am not prepared to falsify scientific facts to make them feel better about themselves.

My analogy, as always, is with religious tolerance. People should be free to believe what they want. That should not impact on their employment (though I'd think it a bit odd if a regular mass-attending Catholic wanted to become president of the British Humanist Society). It should not impact on their housing rights, right to live free from harrassment and violence. But that doesn't mean they can insist creationism is taught in school biology lessons.

MsBeaujangles · 14/12/2017 09:37

@Perfectlywretched - I think issues relating to 'spaces' need to be fully explored but, equally, so do issues of gender stereotyping and natal sex.

I work with children, adolescents and their families. I work with those that are gender non conforming although the number of whom are a fraction of those I work with for a myriad of other reasons. Gender role/ expectations have a lot to answer for in relation to the challenges many young people encounter, as do issues relating to their biological sex (regardless of whether they are gender conforming or not).

I would like to see (i) efforts being made to reduce the negative impacts that being gender non conforming can have (ii) efforts being made to reduce the negative impacts that biology/ natal sex can have (iiii) efforts being made to reduce the negative impacts that gender expectations and stereotyping can have.

I do think that conflicts of interest arise in relation to the above. I don't see those in 'Camp 1' as being anti-trans, but instead are prioritising concerns (ii) and (iii) and are anxious about how proposed (and actual) measures to address concern (i) are a threat to this. Similarly, those shouting bigot, transphone etc. are prioritising concern (i) over (ii) and (iii) and can see how concerns relating to (ii) and (iii) threaten desired steps wanted to address concern (i).

I agree with you that the way forward is to explore how best to move forward. I don't think excluding anyone from contributing to this is helpful. So long as posts remain within talk guidelines, I think all contributions should be considered.

At the moment, the discussion seems to lack useful contributions from those whose primary interests lay with supporting people who are gender non conforming. As a starting point, I would find it really helpful to understand preferred definitions for 'woman' and 'man'. This would help us think about moving forward with safe spaces and gender stereotyping concerns.

I am a natal woman and I do not experience any difficulties with my gender identity, I actually do not have a gender identity. I operate from a position of trying to be kind. I do not accept that I do this because I am a woman and have been socialised in to this position. In my household, my male partner and I both operate like this and are raising our children (male and female) to be the same.

carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 09:38

I think Datun has summed up perfectly why expressing concern at the fact that children who do not gender conform are being sterilised, having bits cut off their heathy bodies, and left sexually dysfunctional, is not spreading hate and transphobia but is in fact the reaction of any normal adult to the horrors that are being inflicted on children and teenagers in the name of progress.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/12/2017 09:40

There is no doubt in my mind at all that many very unhappy and confused children and teenagers are not at all well served by the current transorthodoxy and some of what is happening is undoubtedly abuse. 4thwavenow.com/ is a website for concerned parents. There's some heartrending stuff on there.

Look at this family in Arizona where mother, stepfather, young son and young daughter are all transitioning to the opposite sex. Does that seem like a healthy set up to you?

What about this case in the UK? the legal judgement. A couple split up. Their very young son lived mostly with his mother but spent some time with his father. The mother was convinced he was 'gender variant' and started socially transitioning him. The father was not convinced. The mother tried to stop him having access. This backfired because the judge eventually ruled that there was no real evidence to support this child having gender dysphoria at all and he would be better off living with his father full-time. He criticised the charity Mermaids and I believe there is a restraining order in place to prevent them talking to the mother now, as the judge seemed to believe they had egged the mother on, rather than trying to get her to take things slowly and let the child develop in his own way.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 09:41

I agree carrot

I feel very sorry for Jazz when i read posts like that

Ds1 (18) said the other day that he was grateful that he isnt a child at this time as he would have been 'told' by fellow pupils that he was a girl and may have started believing it if society was moving in that direction

CosmicCanary · 14/12/2017 09:41

This is exactly the kind or ridiculous statement from camp 1 that shows you up as being driven by fear and hate. It's hardly surprising the trans activists are protesting. How is that going to achieve anything.

Of course I am driven by fear.
I fear that children are being pushed in to life changing decisions by those who only seek to validate their own ideology.

Jazz is a prime example.
Mermaids another.

The emotional abuse I see daily by TRAs that our children will kill themselves if we do not support them to halt puberty and take hormones that will ruin their future.
They would rather a transwemons feelz are worth more than the safety and dignity of women and girls.

Does that not scare you? It scares me.

I do not hate the transgender community. I have never once said I do.

I do hate the lie that men can be women and women can be men.

I hate that they threaten women with their lady dick.
With rape.
With punches and death by fire.
One yesterday even said terfs should be run over and live the rest of their life as unlovable cripples.

I hate that they campaigne to no platform women. Lesbians. Any female who wobt believe their bullshit.

TRAs are abusive men or handmaidens.
So no I will not stand side by side with them.

perfectlywretched · 14/12/2017 09:51

MsBeau thank you, and yes I agree.

To respond to your point about defining a 'woman' , I believe to acknowledge transgender people exist (as the current law does) and to also acknowledge intersex people exist, as science proves they do, is to accept that gender is not always a binary concept. People do identify as a different gender to that they appear to be, I don't understand it and I don't feel that way myself but I truly believe they do.

Only once the existence of transgender and intersex people is acknowledged, we can move on and discuss whether people who identify themselves as women should be allowed the same rights and privileges as all women.

Datun · 14/12/2017 09:51

When children claim they are the opposite sex, it must be heart rending for the parents concerned.

The premise is, that presenting as the opposite sex alleviates the symptoms. Which, I am sure, is well evidenced.

But, it should be challenged.

Because what starts out this week as a name and a pronoun change will end up as Jazz Jennings.

There is little to no mention of gender dysphoria in the Jazz Jennings narrative.

If feeling as though you are the opposite sex results in Jazz Jennings, there need to be huge rollback of how to tackle gender dysphoria.

If transitioning does not ultimately ‘cure’ gender dysphoria or make anyone any happier, again, there needs to be a rollback in how to tackle it.

We cannot possibly, surely, in 2017 be treating a psychological condition in this demonstrably severe way. Surgery, sterilisation, compromised sexual function, and a lifetime of drugs.

Why isn’t all the money that is being spent on this ‘treatment’ being diverted to the causes of gender dysphoria?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/12/2017 09:56

Intersex has nothing to do with this. Intersex is an umbrella term for a number of extremely rare conditions that make it difficult to tell what sex a baby is. Clearly given society's preoccupation with gender stereotypes these children may have some difficulties growing up if they are not clearly either male or female but the vast majority of children and teenagers identifying as trans are very clearly male or female biologically. It's muddying the waters to start talking about intersex and intersex people themselves have asked transgender activists not to do it.

carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 09:57

Perfect you are really not getting it. Gender - how you feel and behave - may not be a binary concept BUT BIOLOGICAL SEX IS.

Intersex people have a medical condition. They are not transgender. They have asked for their condition not to be co-opted to prove trans people exist. Yes still transactivists persist to try to bolster the total lack of science behind their arguments.

OP posts:
kamarastar · 14/12/2017 09:57

TRAs are abusive men or handmaidens.
So no I will not stand side by side with them.
Amen to that. Neither will I.

MsBeaujangles · 14/12/2017 09:58

@perfectlywretched.

I think one of the challenges we have on these threads is that they cover a wide range of issues, albeit related ones, and so some debates/discussions gets lost along the way.

I am really interested in picking up your points about definitions. I will start a thread about this now and see if we can keep it on track to discussions about this.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 09:58

Intersex is not transgender or even transsexual.

Intersex empirically exists, is scientifically verifiable and is permenant. Transsexualism is a mental disorder of unknown origin. Transgenderism is neither of these.

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