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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

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carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 09:58

And society does acknowledge intersex people. It also acknowledges transgender people. An increasing number however, as awareness grows, do not acknowledge that transgender people are actually the sex they say they are. Because they are not.

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Thermostatpolice · 14/12/2017 10:03

Only once the existence of transgender and intersex people is acknowledged

Intersex organisations have asked to be left out of this (intersex has nothing to do with gender). However we know that intersex people exist.

And we know that people who identify as transgender exist! Of course we do. They should be able to crack on with their lives with dignity and respect.

MentholBreeze · 14/12/2017 10:04

(barring the tiny, tiny fraction of jobs or roles within jobs in which biological sex actually matters - e.g. being a peer rape counsellor for women who have asked to talk to another woman about their experiences, being a police or prison officer who carries out intimate cavity searches)

ie. where it's not about them. This is a key difference - this is what separates those who are dymorphoric (ie. it's about them, and their feelings about themselves) and the more aggressive TAs. One set is trying to fix themselves, so they can get on with life. The other is trying to force other people to change.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:04

Only once the existence of transgender and intersex people is acknowledged

Its been acknowledged eleventy billion times

I dont think i have read a post on here that has ever said that transgender people don't exist

PricklyBall · 14/12/2017 10:05

I have in my life suffered from two endocrine disorders.

The first, hyperthyroidism, doesn't mean I have some new type of metabolism that runs faster than other people's, and our old "unary" (for want of a better word) understanding of how the metabolism works should be replaced by a spectrum from "super laid back" to "super edgy and wired" (trying to come up with suitably non-judgemental euphemisms for feeling crap because your thyroid is underactive, and feeling crap because you thyroid is overactive). It means I have a malfunction of the endocrine system.

Similarly, with my PCOS (which I have some transactivists claim is a form of intersex - yes, they are that bonkers - then try to appropriate to push their "biological sex is blurry and social constructed" political agenda) I produce more testosterone than the average woman. That doesn't mean that I'm part of some magic spectrum from fully female to fully male with a load of transitional states in between. It means that my fully female reproductive system has a bit of a glitch in it.

Sex in humans is binary. Deviations from this are abnormalities (in the medical sense, not in the sense of passing moral judgement), not evidence that it was never binary in the first place. Genuine intersex conditions (the ones to do with chromsomal disorders, not the extra conditions thrown into the mix to try to muddy the waters, like PCOS and hypospadias) are very rare, and in evolutionary terms dead-ends because they leave the person with them infertile. Again, they are not evidence that sex in mammals is not binary, they are evidence that sometimes things go wrong.

MentholBreeze · 14/12/2017 10:06

In fact, this puts me in mind of a Ben Elton routine when I was a young adult - where he suggests that the licensing requirements for automatic weapons should be one question 'do you wish to own a machine gun', and that if the answer is 'Yes' then you're not qualified to have one.

As goes machine guns, so goes access to women's spaces.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 10:10

Yy prickly. Again (for the people at the back!), acknowledging that there is a fault because someone doesn't meet the "normal" criteria for something is not a value judgement

Datun · 14/12/2017 10:11

perfectlywretched

I’m not sure what skin you have this game, if any. But you’re coming up with arguments that we have seen a hundred times before. And addressed. Comprehensively addressed.

Yes, intersex is a condition. It’s a disorder. It’s not a third sex.

If you look there is a long running thread on here with biologists, and endocrinologists all explaining about intersex. Genetic experts filling the thread with fascinating and interesting aspects.

None of whom conflate it with transgenderism.

Humans are binary. I actually learnt something on there about this. Binary does not refer to the description of individual humans. It refers to the means by which we reproduce. You have to have a person from each sex in order to do that. That’s what makes us binary.

Many intersex conditions render the person infertile. But for those who aren’t, you still require the binary to reproduce.

In any event a man who has XY chromosomes claiming to be a biological woman has nothing to do with intersex.

The intersex society themselves feel horribly appropriated by it being brought up to shore up the argument that humans can change sex.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 10:11

I'd quite like a machine gun... darn.

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 10:34

perfectlywretched do you have any personal experience of GnrH analogues, the drugs being erroneously labelled "puberty blockers" and given to pre-pubescent children? Sadly I do.

I find it insane that they're being called puberty blockers. Perhaps we should start calling hysterectomies "pregnancy blockers" so they don't seem so scary?

I was on one of these drugs for two years in my mid 20s. Even as someone who had long since gone through puberty, the effect was extreme and dramatic.
I lost my hair
I permanently lost breast tissue
I lost several stone
I lost my sex drive completely, to the point where I couldn't stand to be touched - for more than 6 years
It affected my personality, I had violent mood swings and rages, which has never gone away even 7 years on
I have the bones of a pensioner and any trip can cause a fracture
It has caused me ongoing health issues that I believe to be thyroid related but doctors aren't interested - instead I've been diagnosed with ME and fibromyalgia and have been unable to work a full time job for six years

The fact that these drugs are being touted as perfectly safe, harmless and reversible shows that there is an agenda here because they're none of these things. No one who'd ever had to take these drugs would give them to their children.

So yes, I am extremely concerned that regressive gender stereotypes are being used to push children towards this "solution" which could destroy their fertility, sex drive, career and life forever.

Thermostatpolice · 14/12/2017 10:50

TammySwansonTwo Flowers

Sadly I think that we are going to be seeing a lot of young adults reporting the same thing. Your post should be required reading for anyone that casually recommends puberty blockers.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:54

beyond

Well if anybody asks you do you want a machine gun then you now know the correct answer Grin

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 12:07

Thanks thermo. I and many other women (and men actually) have had to take these drugs for medical reasons. Those of us who've had to live with effects like this are pretty angry. I can't even imagine how angry I'd be if it hadn't been necessary at all. If you look at the Transgender Reality blog you'll see Reddit posts where confused teenagers are told that testosterone will damage and ruin their bodies if they don't act now. These people don't know the meaning of the words.

BatShite · 14/12/2017 12:14

This is exactly the kind or ridiculous statement from camp 1 that shows you up as being driven by fear and hate. It's hardly surprising the trans activists are protesting. How is that going to achieve anything.

I don't think pointing out that shoving gender non-conforming kids onto dangerous drugs and setting them up for a lifetime of medicalization is child abuse...is a ridiculous statement.

Nuffaluff · 14/12/2017 12:14

Tammy Flowers for you - that is terrible.
I just don't understand why this isn't more widely publicised. When some gender clinic doctors claim they're harmless, why are other doctors not speaking up?
It's a major scandal waiting to happen isn't it?

BatShite · 14/12/2017 12:15

Though when parents are told bullshit by the likes of mermaids such as 'its transition or die' and such, you cannot blamer them for getting scared and going along with it.

Sensimilla · 14/12/2017 12:18

Brava OP

BatShite · 14/12/2017 12:22

I believe to acknowledge transgender people exist (as the current law does) and to also acknowledge intersex people exist, as science proves they do, is to accept that gender is not always a binary concept.

It always seems to come back to this

Noone is denying trans people exist. Thats just a ridiculous argument and is constantly argued against when its never said.

Also women on here know that 'gender' is not a binary concept. Mainly as 'gender' is made up bullshit. Sex is binary though (save a small amount of people who are actually intersex, who wish to be left out of arguments about 'transgender') and sex does matter in a few areas of life.

BatShite · 14/12/2017 12:25

Only once the existence of transgender and intersex people is acknowledged, we can move on and discuss whether people who identify themselves as women should be allowed the same rights and privileges as all women.

No. People who 'identify' as women should not have the same rights/privileges as actual women. How would that work, in reality? Given 'gender' is entirely in someones head (something thats agreed by both gender critical feminists and transactivists) and sex is a biological reality?

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 12:27

It absolutely is a scandal waiting to happen. And there are more stories coming out about young people who've been on these drugs as suggested and now have insufficient genitalia to facilitate a sex change, but hey they have absolutely no sex drive whatsoever either so maybe that's not such a bad thing (that's sarcasm, in case that's not obvious). Having been through this as a capable adult, my heart absolutely breaks for these children.

The side effects of drugs like Lupron and Zoladex are so severe that they're only licensed for 6 months use in women suffering from endometriosis (my doctor decided to keep me on it for two years, which i will regret for the rest of my life). They're only given where less invasive / risky treatments have failed, and most gynaes require a diagnosis of endometriosis before prescribing it.

The fact that it's being given to children to try and improve the aesthetic outcomes of a gender transition is just beyond my comprehension. How any doctor is agreeing to this is madness.

MissUnderwood · 14/12/2017 12:40

carrotandcornsoup much to my dismay I have decided not vote for Labour again until they drop their 'transwomen are women' stance. The appointment of a transwomen as the labour party women's equality officer was the last straw for me.

I feel sick with worry over this.

NotTerfNorCis · 14/12/2017 12:48

Just so you know, MN is being discussed on Twitter right now. Good old 'Shon'.

twitter.com/shonfaye/status/941246824899403778

Lancelottie · 14/12/2017 12:54

Thinking about it, though, I don't agree that gender is entirely in someones head

Gendered expectations are a societal reality, and currently an inescapable one.

McTufty · 14/12/2017 12:59

Where is that comment Shon has quoted about being violent to trans? Is it on this thread and I’ve missed it?

perfectly I fall into camp 2. However that makes me a TERF, because I am tacitly acknowledging a difference between natal women and transwomen, and therein lies the difficulty with the way the TRAs are trying to approach this issue.

carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 12:59

Just looked at that Twitter thread... ‘I dangled a bloody tampon in her face’.

That didn’t really happen, did it? Because you made it up.

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