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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

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PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 12/12/2017 18:43

I just ask you to think before slamming the door in the face of trans people.

You do realise there's a transwoman posting on this thread, right?

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 18:45

Grandma common sense and compassion. Something us women are supposedly known for.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/12/2017 18:45

common sense and compassion

How does that work then?

Datun · 12/12/2017 18:46

goodlittleally

It is men that are the threat to women and trans women so let them share our spaces. It’s surely not that much to ask?

A) Transwomen are men. If you don’t think men are a threat to women, then there is no point in talking to you.

B) transwomen retain male pattern violence. They don’t magically assume female pattern violence.

C) A significant cohort of transwomen are autogynephiles.

D) Self identification will open the doors to any man, all men.

Can you please address those objections. Saying just be nice is a stupid argument.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 12/12/2017 18:46

@goodlittleally

In what way is this person a woman?

a letter to the woman who called me a terf
Thermostatpolice · 12/12/2017 18:47

Ally, nobody has ever, ever, once suggested that transpeople are not human beings. Of course they are. Worthy of dignity, protections and respect like everyone else. What transwomen are not, is female. I still believe that you know this deep down.

We can protect and respect transwomen whilst simultaneously preserving female protections and rights. However, this means acknowledging that, whilst we are all human, transwomen and women have some separate needs based on differing biology.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 12/12/2017 18:48

Where, anywhere, has anyone said trans people aren't human beings?

Yes, safety issues and fear are important to and for transgender people.

Although you've spent time explaining that women are irrational and hysterical for having the same fears and that their safety issues don't exist, although the perpetrators for both groups are the same.

The need is that there must be safe and dignified spaces for transgender people to use so they are not forced into unsafe male spaces.

Your solution is that women hand over their spaces, their rights, their legal definition and participate in their own erasure.

Mine is separate gender neutral spaces in the few situations where biological women need their own spaces as a separate group, transgender specific spaces for prison populations, and a concerted approach towards dealing with the source of all the issues: male violence.

Aeroflotgirl · 12/12/2017 18:48

Totally agree Thermos, could t have put it better.

Datun · 12/12/2017 18:50

I’m done going round in circles.

And yet, not one single coherent argument that doesn’t involve a proven false and manipulative please do what I say otherwise people will kill themselves,or can’t you just be nice.

No.

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 18:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 18:52

The fact that she is?

Using a definition that actually has words in it?

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 18:52

Some women have beards, get over it.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 18:53

PS, that probably borders on ableism, but no doubt you'll say the pictures of Muscato are transphobic so you won't understand why it isn't okay

Datun · 12/12/2017 18:53

Good Lord. That is a woman with PCOS.

Is there nothing you won’t appropriate?

Danielle Muscato is an actual transwoman. Who exhorts you to suck his dick if you disagree.

This isn’t a game ffs!

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 12/12/2017 18:54

@goodlittleally

That person is a woman because she has XX chromosomes and polycystic ovary syndrome, which is something that only affects women.

Now it's your turn to answer my question. In what way is this person a woman?

a letter to the woman who called me a terf
BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 18:54

A lot of women have beards. More than women (actual women) who have cocks.

titchy · 12/12/2017 18:57

Ally do you really not believe that there are men pretending to be tw in order to assault women? Those are the folk we're afraid of. And we can no longer tell the difference.

There are bucketloads of them. Lots ironically now in female prisons.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 12/12/2017 18:57

How is common sense and compassion going to help if someone in a bathroom or changing room exposes themselves to you and your kids, or assaults you? He isn't going to be interested in you counselling him. He isn't going to care about your gender identity either, only your biological sex.

What you're arguing for is that women have no right to spaces of their own, and nothing they can say or do whether a man walks in to a female space because he identifies as a trans woman or wants to sex offend. Common sense and compassion will not help you. There will be nothing you can do. Even Topshop's manager has said nothing more than a lame, if you're sexually assaulted because of the policy he'll be really sorry and try and help.

Considering that in the rare cases of rape and sexual assault that the CPS are willing to take as far as court it is standard for the court to look in detail at what responsibility she has to bear for that assault according to where she was, what time of day it was, what she was wearing and doing - seriously, how long will it be before a woman hears in a court room 'well you knew it was a gender neutral changing room where any man could walk in, so you asked for it when you walked in there and undressed'?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 12/12/2017 18:59

You seem a bit fixated on the beard so let's try this another way.

In what way @goodlittleally is this person a woman?

Let's see if you can actually answer this time.

a letter to the woman who called me a terf
Datun · 12/12/2017 19:00

well you knew it was a gender neutral changing room where any man could walk in, so you asked for it when you walked in there and undressed'?

God, you’re right. The single stall ladies was across the car park, up a flight of stairs, across the corridor and down in the basement, will not be any kind of defence.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 19:03

Sparkly, I'm rather miserably waiting for "well you saw he had a penis in [women-only situation] he was wandering around with it out, why didn't you report him? You obviously wanted it"

SparklyUnicornTractors · 12/12/2017 19:04

in what way is this person a woman?

Her chromosomes in every cell of her body, the size and shape of her pelvis, reproductive organs and genitals. From one scrap of her DNA a lab would be able to identify her sex.

Gender presentation is a costume, biological sex is a fact. You're welcome to believe that costume creates sex classification, you're welcome to believe in God, in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy, but that doesn't make them factually true or something others should be forced to play along with.

FirstShinyRobe · 12/12/2017 19:05

goodlittleally You have mentioned being a feminist and one for a long time, so I am assuming that you were around during the second wave of feminism. How does no longer being able to identify the harms done to women (and by whom) square with your feminism?

Not wanting to have a male body doesn't make one a woman. I am genuinely puzzled why, as a lesbian feminist, that statement doesn't resonate with you and I am curious as to why not. How do you rationalise women now meaning anyone who feels like one, rather than a biological reality?

BatShite · 12/12/2017 19:06

It is men that are the threat to women and trans women so let them share our spaces. It’s surely not that much to ask?

Transwomen have bene sharing womens spaces for years now. What is being proposed is that ANY MAN is able to also use these womens spaces. This is the problem. But this has been explained over and over and you seem to be misunderstanding. I can only assume at this stage, its purposeful misunderstanding.

Thermostatpolice · 12/12/2017 19:07

How would Harnaam Kaur, a person who has written widely about the abuse she suffers as a bearded woman feel if she saw that photo and your comment next to it? I hope that MN deletes the post.

Muscato is a man. Kaur is a woman. You know why.

Why has Kaur suffered misogynistic abuse because of her facial hair ever since it appeared? And why Muscato didn't suffer misogynistic abuse when his appeared? Again, you know why.

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