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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 11:34

Prickly Maybe you should ask Mumsnet HQ? Me and my wife both posted on this thread as trans allies and subsequently had our accounts deleted.
We have both emailed Mumsnet HQ asking for an explanation and asking to be reinstated but received radio silence.
As you say, there are no troll posts on this thread so the only logical conclusion is Mumsnet HQ deleted us for not sharing the TERF ideology.

sleighbellend · 12/12/2017 11:37

Well given that practically every other feminist space on the internet has been overrun by TRAs and MRAs I’m sure you can find somewhere else.

Datun · 12/12/2017 11:41

... the only logical conclusion is Mumsnet HQ deleted us for not sharing the TERF ideology.

Except plenty of people here don’t support women, but still don’t get banned.

Every trans thread has people supporting the trans-ideology. They’re not banned.

Mumsnot only ban for personal attacks. Rank racism and disablism. Or Previously banned posters.

Blanchefleur · 12/12/2017 12:20

ally, quite a few women have now specifically replied to the points you made earlier on, have given examples and pointed out areas where you seem to have misunderstood. Would you like to respond to this? We genuinely do want to understand why you hold the views you do, and we would like to have a proper debate.

Also, I'd like to stress that regular posters on this board are not in the business of insulting each other, regardless of whether or not we hold the same opinions. TERF is an insult, frequently used in conjunction with threats of violence against women and always used with the aim of silencing women's voices. This board is a place where women's voices can be heard.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet · 12/12/2017 12:43

Hi everyone,
Here to clear up a bit of confusion. The two accounts were suspended because we got several reports in saying that it was one person sock-puppeting, so we did what we usually do in that case, which is to have a look and if we think it is an SP, suspend both accounts.

Normally we hear from people if there has been a mistake, and of course that's exactly what happened.

We have an email exchange from around 4pm yesterday and another this morning (viewed at 11.35am so the above might just be an unfortunate x post) and for us, the matter was resolved.

We have reinstated one account and are happy to do the same for the other, but first we just need to find out which of her two accounts that poster (agoodlittleally) wants to use from now on as having two accounts running at the same time does break our guidelines.

Again, apologies to agoodlittleally and her wife for having erroneously suspended their posting privileges.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 14:14

I've always been curious how you determine between sockpuppeting and genuine two people/same IP accounts (as my DH has a mn account - and has been known to agree with me in person, so in theory could pop up on a thread) Grin

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet · 12/12/2017 14:19

TSSDNCOP, Beyond. Grin
Suffice it to say, if your DH ever publicly agrees with you, that's a bridge we will cross...

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 14:23

Ah of course helen, i didn't expect an answer Grin
Just pondering aloud...

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 14:24

Suffice it to say, if your DH ever publicly agrees with you, that's a bridge we will cross.

Grin
BatShite · 12/12/2017 16:07

We, at present, already have a compromise.
(Diagnosis of dysphoria, 2 years "living as", leading to GRC changing legal status. A very small amount of legal exceptions - medical/care/refuge)

Indeed. Some seem to miss this, maybe on purpose. Things are fine as they are. The only people that the proposed changes will actually help are predators, and pisstakers (like that Travis dude)

BatShite · 12/12/2017 16:39

"Why are the people shouting Terf not wondering why older, lefty women, who have always been on the frontline of progressive activism, suddenly angry?"

Excellent question, and one that tends to silence whoever is currently yelling 'terf', as there isn't really an answer to it. It makes no sense at all why so many who champion the rights of minorities would suddenly go the total opposite way. Unless, there was a genuine reason. Which there is. The 'rights' TRAs are calling for are in direct conflict with the rights that female people currently have. TRAs are scarily similar to MRAs (and I think there is a very large crossover between the two)

This is all that gender critical feminists want to protect. No one wants to deny trans people seperate protections and rights. But it does seem that transactivists are seeking the destruction of rights based on biological sex, which is ironically a particularly predatory male behaviour.

Yes, I genuinely do not get why this is wrong, or how it makes us bigoted. Caring about the rights of females makes someone a nasty bigot. Astounding really.

blackdoggotmytongue · 12/12/2017 17:03

I really don’t understand. I suppose it is easier to accuse women of transphobia than actually grasp that no one has any particular issue with trans people, but that the concern is based on the fact that women’s safeguards are being smashed up in order to prioritise transwomen. I don’t think it’s laziness, but there is a lack of interest in repercussions for women. And it’s weird to see women’s concerns not just dismissed, but completely invalidated by a self proclaimed old leftie lesbian.
Ally can you explain why, in your view, you have come to the conclusion that women voicing distress are merely hysterical and phobic, and that transwomen with penises identifying as women (and lesbians) should be further protected as women in law? I’m assuming as a married women that you aren’t looking for a new partner, but I know one friend has already been accused of being transphobic for not finding a transwoman with a penis attractive. She’s pretty pissed that her identity as a lesbian was shat on by a transwoman who used #nodebate on her because they wanted PIV sex and she refused.
I also don’t understand why you assume we are all haters. I know a fair few transwomen (have done for years) and we all rub along fine, using the correct names and pronouns. There is very definitely a new wave of transwoman who is not remotely interested in rubbing along, but is rather out to delegitimise womanhood itself, and to take over that reserved space and discredit biological norms.
I don’t know why.

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 17:52

To help people understand the ally viewpoint, I have responded in the style of the OP. Hope this makes sense.

A letter to my transgender sisters:

To all my transgender friends and sisters, I stand by you.

I believe you grew up feeling trapped inside a male body that felt alien and wrong to you.

I am sorry that my fellow women mock you for being a bearded man in a dress, that must hurt so much.

I’m sorry they ask for a ‘real woman’ midwife when you are a real woman and you have the same amount of training and display the same level of compassion as any other midwife.

I’m sorry these women claim you would frighten their elderly relatives. I know you haven’t worked so hard to become a nurse or carer to be an object of fear and ridicule. I know it isn’t a fetish.

When I come across you in the ladies toilet when I’m alone, late at night I won’t scream in horror, I won’t assume you are there to assault me.

I’m sorry you feel desperate and suicidal. I’m sorry you can’t find work and are subjected to verbal abuse and psychical assault on a daily basis. As a woman I feel compassion for the assaults you are subjected to at the hands of men.

How many transgender lives need to be lost before women start to welcome you into our safe spaces? 27 transgender women have been killed this year alone:

www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/29/transgender-woman-shot-dead-in-brutal-attack-is-the-27th-to-be-killed-this-year/amp/

Women are fearful you are trampling on their rights, destroying their safeguards, manipulating society into giving you rights you do not deserve. I wish they understood you need those safeguards just as much as them.

So, my transgender sisters, I stand with you, just like you stood with me when we marched together for equal rights. I will always have your back, just like you have mine.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 17:57

Golly that was all I needed. I recant my TERFy ways

WTAFisthisshit · 12/12/2017 17:59

I understand the ally viewpoint, I just disagree with it.

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 17:59

Excellent news beyond I’m glad we’re making progress.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 18:10

Did you not realise while you were writing that that it really doesn't have the power of the OP?

Really? Because it really really really doesn't come close.

And that bit at the end about how TRAs have fought for women. Can you give us some detail on that? Because I haven't seen it. Fighting WITH women yes, but not quite in the way you mean...

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 18:15

I’ve seen plenty of transgender woman on women’s marches.

They have fought for marriage equality, so lesbian women can marry one another.

Yes there are a tiny minority or wrong’uns but the majority of trans people are on our side!

I expect the ally viewpoint doesn’t have the same impact as you don’t care about trans rights so why would you give a shit that trans women are being attacked and killed.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 18:18

🙄

Lancelottie · 12/12/2017 18:19

Name a transwoman killed in the UK because she is transgender?

goodlittleally · 12/12/2017 18:20

Omg beyond has finally opened her eyes, I think we have a new ally.

Datun · 12/12/2017 18:21

I believe you grew up feeling trapped inside a male body that felt alien and wrong to you.

How is that ever a reason for ceding women’s rights!

I am sorry that my fellow women mock you for being a bearded man in a dress, that must hurt so much.

Ditto.

I’m sorry they ask for a ‘real woman’ midwife when you are a real woman and you have the same amount of training and display the same level of compassion as any other midwife.

A) They are not women, real or otherwise. B) The transwoman’s compassion has got absolutely nothing to do with a woman’s desire to have a female HCP.

I’m sorry these women claim you would frighten their elderly relatives. I know you haven’t worked so hard to become a nurse or carer to be an object of fear and ridicule. I know it isn’t a fetish.

A) Again, how is their perspective anything to do with how a woman feels about having a male HCP? It’s irrelevant.

B) How do you know it’s not a fetish?

When I come across you in the ladies toilet when I’m alone, late at night I won’t scream in horror, I won’t assume you are there to assault me.

Can you give me the magic key that can distinguish a predator from a non-predator?

I’m sorry you feel desperate and suicidal. I’m sorry you can’t find work and are subjected to verbal abuse and psychical assault on a daily basis. As a woman I feel compassion for the assaults you are subjected to at the hands of men.

Again, absolutely zero to do with women, and not the responsibility women to fix. Neither do suicidal thoughts or abuse constitute the definition of woman.

How many transgender lives need to be lost before women start to welcome you into our safe spaces? 27 transgender women have been killed this year alone:

Since we were talking about the laws in this country, less than one transwoman a year is killed in this country (as opppaed to two women a week). Again, not the responsibility of women. Furthermore there have been more trans murderers in this country than trans people who have been murdered.

I wish they understood you need those safeguards just as much as them.

Absolutely, if you want them. Campaign for your own space!!

Or, least have the guts to tell me why you don’t want it.

MillicentFawcett · 12/12/2017 18:25

@goodlittleally: Do you know how many transwomen were murdered in 2016 in the UK? None.

Do you know how many women were murdered? 138.

Transwomen in the UK are much less likely to be assaulted or murdered in the UK than women. Your stats are from Latin America. They're a deliberate attempt to skew stats to make transwomen appear more vulnerable than women. Why would they be? They're men!

BatShite · 12/12/2017 18:25

Excellent news beyond I’m glad we’re making progress.
Omg beyond has finally opened her eyes, I think we have a new ally.

These two sarcastic replies alone show you are not posting in good faith to be quite honest.

Again, noone wishes for trans people to have no rights or denies sex dysphoria exists. But...male people are not female. No matter how much they may wish it to be so.

Thermostatpolice · 12/12/2017 18:25

Ally

"I am sorry that my fellow women mock you"

Why not 'our fellow women'? After all, "you are a real woman".

Transwomen are transwomen. Not women. Your slip of the tongue and use of 'my' implies that deep down you know. You know this.

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