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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
McTufty · 12/12/2017 10:25

I don’t think the OP is hate speech at all. It highlights examples of why the mantra of “transwomen are women”, and insistence that “trans rights are women’s rights” is a total fallacy.

There ARE some situations in which the rights of natal women conflict with the rights of transwomen. The OP has highlighted that.

Generally I am more than happy to accept gender dysphoria is real, to use preferred pronouns and treat trans people with respect, and back their cause to be accepted and to live their lives without fear of assault etc.

What I can’t do is accept that there are no circumstances in which it is acceptable to treat a natal woman differently to a trans woman. That trampled over certain rights of natal women (eg be treated by a female doctor) and I am astonished at the number of people who don’t seem to grasp this.

Datun · 12/12/2017 10:30

"Why are the people shouting Terf not wondering why older, lefty women, who have always been on the frontline of progressive activism, suddenly angry?"

Exactly. Feminism isn’t about jumping up and down on the Internet and complaining about misogyny where ever you go.

It’s about analysing statistics, understanding law, writing papers, lobbying government, drumming up support and funding, collective activism.

Feminists would never have got laws changed if they weren’t taken seriously. If they didn’t have a point.

This issue is one of the most important feminist issues.

If You cannot legally define the word woman, you can’t talk about women or their rights.

If the world woman now includes men, you can’t address women specifically.

Laws that are based on sex discrimination, can no longer have a definition of sex.

If The government want to give rights to trans people, that’s fine. All they have to is make sure that women also have rights based on their biology, not a feeling in a man’s head.

Which is impossible, at the moment, with the transwomen are women rhetoric. Deciding that biological sex is based on a mental feeling, rather than the biological category is what is creating all the difficulty.

The conflict is insurmountable unless you create a third space.

Which I would vote for in a heartbeat.

agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 10:31

Beyond I imagine partially due to the stirring up of hysteria on the Mumsnet Feminist board.

Me and the wife are both old lefties, we’ve marched for women’s rights.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 10:35

Hysteria? I don't know any older feminists who call women hysterical.

Lancelottie · 12/12/2017 10:36

I'm not seeing any hysteria, Ally (I do think that's a really weird choice of word in the circumstances -- aren't you worried that it's a bit, you know, transexclusionary, being biologically based and all?).

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 10:36

I'm an old lefty too. I've matched too. I don't agree with you. I don't even think you are representative of those people. I don't get your point. Did you make a point yet?

Datun · 12/12/2017 10:38

I don’t know any older feminists who call their anger hysteria.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 10:39

You honestly think that a this is because of 'stirring up hysteria'?

What astonishing contempt you must hold women in, that we are so easily manipulated. Are you sure you are one?

IfNot · 12/12/2017 10:39

I do think it's important to stick to rational language when talking about trans women. People making a snide comments about them looking like a docker in a dress/ not passing etc just fuel the idea that this issue is about bigotry, when it's actually about protecting women and girls, and not really about trans people at all.
There are a few trans posters on here that have been here years and I don't want them to feel pushed out of the discussion, or made to feel unwelcome.

There is a distinction between ordinary transwomen and narcissists like the Top Shop idiot.

JudgementalSquirrel · 12/12/2017 10:39

Datun I have been reading all these threads with great interest. I have my own views and would be considered very terfy I would imagine.

Where do you think this is all going to end up? Do you think the bill will go through? Or will it be a 'silent majority' thing, where sensible, rational people, who can see this for the utter madness it is, will vote it down and womankind can breathe a sigh of relief?

Or do you think we will end up having to swallow this insanity?

I am usually quite good at getting a feel for how things are going to turn out, I have a certain faith that common sense will prevail, but then again......

SparklyUnicornTractors · 12/12/2017 10:41

I'm still not certain why the original post on this thread, which explains a woman's perspective and feelings regarding self identification, can be 'inflammatory' and 'whipping up a frenzy'. It makes it sound like the good old tactic of 'reverse victim and offender' - ie 'how dare you upset and criticise me by showing the hurt my beliefs and actions cause you?'

There is also a difference between the courteous, polite and supportive going along with someone's chosen identity and denying biological sex. When that support becomes an attempt to erase objective reality in favour of feelings then it is time to stand by facts. Trans women are men. This is a fact. I understand for many it is a deeply upsetting and troubling fact, but it is a fact and a fact that has to be acknowledged if this issue is being considered for passing into law. We can't just not debate this because it's sensitive.

Also interesting that the conversation here is on one side facts, information, annecdotes and looking at evidence and possibilities, the other side is entirely an appeal to feelings. Be ashamed. Be kind. Which is fine. Feelings matter. People's feelings and mental health and safety matter enormously. But the answer to helping them cannot be to erase women as a biological sex and chuck them under the bus, based on the plan that anyone with a vagina is everyone's mummy and there to put others first. There are other possible solutions, and objective facts have to trump subjective feelings when it comes to law.

Dad , I'd be interested. What compromises do you see the political trans lobby offering women in this situation? A compromise usually involves both sides giving and getting some of what they want. I honestly have yet to see any evidence anywhere of the political trans groups having the faintest interest in the biological politics, feelings and realities of the sex class they insist they are part of.

(And I'll add there are equally some transwomen, several on this board and Miranda Yardley in particular who I would say are some of the most admirable and women-centred feminists I know.)

Nuffaluff · 12/12/2017 10:41

You've marched for women's rights. So you're a feminist then?
Feminists do not call other women hysterical.
That's usually an mra's tactic for shutting us up/ discrediting what we say.

Goatgirly · 12/12/2017 10:42

It's really not hysteria.
Hysteria better describes the suicide contagion going on with regards to TRAs, where no logical stance is ever given, and "transwomen are women" is repeated, and threats are made to,anyone who questions this (eg. Die cis scum, suck my lady dick, real attacks on women - speaker's corner, no platforming of anyone not going along with trans ideology, refusal to allow valuable research to take place - research denied into detransitioning trans people etc etc.)

Please don't write off these valuable discussions as hysterical, when discussion from TRAs has no basis whatsoever in fact or logic, and I would bet my last pound that those vocal few know damn well what they're doing

GretchenFranklin · 12/12/2017 10:43

hysteria

I don't believe you are a woman Smile

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2017 10:44

Why are so many trans women not satisfied with just being trans but have to barge their way into our wards, awards, bursaries, sports, competitions, schools and groups?

This. Ask yourselves.

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2017 10:45

I certainly don't believe this person is a feminist.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 12/12/2017 10:49

All they have to is make sure that women also have rights based on their biology This. This is all that gender critical feminists want to protect. No one wants to deny trans people seperate protections and rights. But it does seem that transactivists are seeking the destruction of rights based on biological sex, which is ironically a particularly predatory male behaviour.

Datun · 12/12/2017 10:50

I am usually quite good at getting a feel for how things are going to turn out, I have a certain faith that common sense will prevail, but then again......

That’s me too JudgementalSquirrel.

I think the general public are largely unaware of both the implications and the transactivist agenda.

It is a fact, that when you actually engage with a transactivist, the scales tend to fall. They are as clueless as any other men about how women navigate society so differently to them.

The government keep postponing the issue. Meanwhile, mainstream media are picking up on it. And women’s groups are joining together and organising as one cohort.

Against this is the upping of the ante by transactivists. There is an odd dichotomy, in that the more they talk about it, the more they reveal themselves. Their doxxing and no platforming tactics are starting to wane and annoy people, who may not have had much of an opinion before.

On the other hand, other countries have, quite astonishingly, embraced self identification. Although, they do say that the Brits are far more clued up than they were. And they wish they had been better prepared.

Datun · 12/12/2017 10:56

Also interesting that the conversation here is on one side facts, information, annecdotes and looking at evidence and possibilities, the other side is entirely an appeal to feelings. Be ashamed. Be kind.

Every single engagement goes the same way. The name-calling, and then why do you have to be so mean?

At this point, I would almost be impressed by the transactivist who just said because uppity women need to be taught a lesson. Satisfied?

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 11:02

Oh ffs. It's kind of off topic, but I just saw. Though maybe it needs adding to the list in the OP...

Venice allen was chucked out of a Labour feminist xmas party last night because Liam was there and she made him feel "unsafe" 🙄😡

PricklyBall · 12/12/2017 11:04

Since GoodlittleAlly has her/himself admitted to having been banned and re-regged against the rules, perhaps it's worth reminding ourselves why he/she might have been banned.

We know it's not for going against the general consensus of the thread - there are people who've been on here for years who regularly challenge gender critical feminism. So what's left?

Personal attacks? Not seen any, certainly not on this thread.

Trolling? I disagree with his/her views but different views are not trolling. I'd like to see those views backed up with argument rather than simply asserting that we're being unkind then reaching for the age old misogynistic slur of "hysterical", but it's still not trolling.

Clearly not troll hunting.

Victim blaming? Not directly. The "women, your PTSD is something you just have to suck up, rather than foist it on poor sensitive transwomen in health care" is clearly deeply insensitive and unfeeling towards women who've suffered sexual violence, but it comes under the heading of minimising women's experiences rather than victim blaming, I think.

So that leaves two possibilities - sock-puppeting, or that good old standby of "we don't think this poster is who they claim to be." Or possibly both.

Remember, the poster in question claims to be a lesbian, also claims that being "transphobic" (which in his/her world amounts to being gender critical) is akin to being lesbophobic in the sense of expecting lesbians to suck dick, but hasn't connected the dots to realise that expecting lesbians to suck dick is precisely what aggressive transactivists are demanding. And that he/she (in their assumed persona) is being TERFy for suggesting that lesbians should get the chance to turn down dick.

So I'm thinking previously banned poster with an elaborate "legend".

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 11:12

I'd take a wild stab in the dark at it being PBP MRA, trying a different tack.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 11:14

I'm thinking previously banned poster with an elaborate "legend".

Or a big liar who hasn't been banned at all?

Blanchefleur · 12/12/2017 11:20

There are plenty of old lefties on here, ally.

I am astonished that someone who claims to have marched for women's rights now appears to be an advocate for their removal.

AdalindSchade · 12/12/2017 11:24

Christopher hambrook

Carlotta Sklodowska

Two examples off the top of my head of men who have identified as transwomen in order to harm women. There are more but I can't remember their full names to google just now. But it happens.

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