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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

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13
BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 09:06

"people are genuinely born in the wrong body"

Please explain this. Preferably using something vaguely scientific, cause it sounds like woo.

Annorlunda5 · 12/12/2017 09:07

ally

You don't see that saying different feelings/personalities belong in different sexed bodies, and that sometimes these get 'mixed up', is inherently sexist?

There are many transwomen that will call you a TERF for not wanting a dick btw. "Transwomen are women and lesbians are attracted to women, some women have penises, ergo lesbians like women with penises".

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 09:07

(PS, if you were going to mention dysphoria, I'll just let you know in advance that saying dysphoria is required to be transgender is considered transphobic)

Datun · 12/12/2017 09:10

agoodlittleally

There is no such thing as being born in the wrong body. Gender dysphoria, however, is a real and crippling condition.

And if transitioning alleviates the symptoms, then great.

It doesn’t make them women. Men who transition retain male pattern violence, male pattern criminality. The very reason for sex segregation does not change.

Of course many men transition because of gender dysphoria, not to attack women!

But the amendment to the GRA will allow any man, any predator, rapist, paedophile, chancer (who are not trans) unfettered access to women girls. Without presenting as female.

Women have shared their spaces with transsexuals since forever. As a courtesy. No problem.

What’s this amendment does is remove women’s choice. It legally erases sex based protection.

This really isn’t about trans people. It’s about a number of influential men who are determined to undermine women’s rights, in the name of transactivism.

1DAD2KIDS · 12/12/2017 09:13

This reply has been deleted

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BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 09:13

(PPS, as far as I have seen "born in the wrong body" was used originally to explain dysphoria with a metaphor, it was never meant to be taken literally ffs - and all of the transpeople I have spoken to understand this. The people who don't understand it are the underthinking allies.)

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 09:15

I must have missed the change to sharia law that would make that comparison valid.

Datun · 12/12/2017 09:19

Creating a huge boggieman out of a very tiny minority group.

Which, if it were true, it would be understandable.

The tiny minority group you are talking of is all men. Any man.

But of course, you know this. You read the threads.

Ffs.

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2017 09:20

Ally

I'm not ashamed of speaking up for my rights and protecting my boundaries and I never will be. I know this erosion of women's rights is wrong. I'm also raising awareness among other women. I think it's you who should be ashamed of yourself. So you'd best learn to deal with that.

Goatgirly · 12/12/2017 09:22

Ally, in terms of transgenderism, I'm as confused as you, and I'm also happy to accept that there are people who benefit from living their lives as the opposite sex, people should live as they want as long as they're not hurting others. I think there's an assumption that anti TRA means anti trans, which most of us here aren't. Trans ideology is mysoginistic, not liberal and accepting.

If a TIM feels threatened by being in a male prison, then there should be the option of facilities for TIM, but at the same time a violent sex lffender TIM has no place in a female prison where they will be a risk to female inmates.
Trans people have rights and needs, that much is obvious, but there's surely a need to carve out their own needs, rather than steamroll over women's rights and ignoring the reason why women have those rights in the first place.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 12/12/2017 09:23

1Dad

You come on here scolding us every 2 weeks or so. You also have no premise for your argument, only a conclusion that we are mean Terfs and abuse.

Is this a working from home day and you are procrastinating perhaps. Because there is a good thread about working from home and skiving in AIBU

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2017 09:25

Is this a working from home day and you are procrastinating perhaps. Because there is a good thread about working from home and skiving in AIBU

Grin
Datun · 12/12/2017 09:29

This it OTT, inflametry and not representative of most transwomen or the situation.

This attitude is just wind up, right?

What if I said to you that there are some highly influential, militant feminists who are campaigning for say, the chemical castration of sexist men.

And that the government had a lightbulb moment and thought hang on, that sounds like a pretty good idea. And started a consultation leading to law to enshrine it.

Then you come on here, to a board populated by feminists, and start a very concerned and worried post.

And we said, oh for god’s sake. What are you worried about? It’s only a handful of feminists. They don’t really reflect what we think. Stop giving feminists a bad name. And anyway, would it really be that bad? I don’t really get your point?

Aeroflotgirl · 12/12/2017 09:33

Aghg I hate this term 'women with penis', a woman does not have a penis, if tgey do, they are trans, so just say trans woman. It really grates on me. Women do not have penis, and men do bot have a vagina!

1DAD2KIDS · 12/12/2017 09:36

Just saying the rhetoric is very a kin to what you get from the Daily Mail and far right, just targeted at a different minority group. Things blown way out of proportion to distort the picture and generate hate. Especially when only about 1% of the population is transgender (including all non bineray indentifications). Yet a picture is painted that we are heading towards a society with a violent sex pest in every bathroom stall, base on a depiction that transgender people are sick perverts. Sounds just like other comtempory demonisation campaigns straight out of the far right play book.

Lancelottie · 12/12/2017 09:37

Oh fuck off, Dad.

I'm concerned, not about a tiny minority hypothetically trampling my rights, but about the fact that now three families I know well have a daughter who is transgender.

One is old enough that she is taking the hormones that will make her into a sterile imitation of a man. The other two look likely to follow. They are already causing actual harm to their bodies by breastbinding. And this is smiled on and encouraged and applauded by their schools and their peers.

These are young girls I know and like, who are being encouraged to self-harm.

For what it's worth, I was accepting though baffled by the first, assuming that this had genuinely and powerfully swept over her at the start of adolescence and somehow was her innermost soul.

But the next, and the next? And the girls I know of, but don't know well? So many of them, all independently and coincidentally discovering that they were boys all along?

It's a self-harm epidemic. It's what distressed young girls do. And the schools and internet are fucking encouraging it.

Datun · 12/12/2017 09:38

1DAD2KIDS

just targeted at a different minority group

Do you have trouble reading? How is all men a minority group?

BlackEyedKid · 12/12/2017 09:38

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

kamarastar · 12/12/2017 09:41

This is brilliant carrotandcornsoup Thank you for articulating, so beautifully, what I'm thinking and feeling too. So scary. Solidarity.

Lancelottie · 12/12/2017 09:42

For the avoidance of doubt, I would never call our friend's youngster a sterile imitation of a man to her face, because that would be cruel and harmful to someone who has been through so much. I will smile, and call them 'him', and be absolutely sure to use the new male name, and recognise that they remain the same lovely person, but one who has now inflicted on themselves a whole list of medical and social difficulties that could well be lifelong.

titchy · 12/12/2017 09:44

I do not believe men self identify as women just to oppress other woman, assault them in public toilets, beat them in running races and invade their safe spaces.

Incorrect. They do. We used to be able to call them out on it, ask security to remove them from the changing room if we felt threatened etc. Attitudes however are changing and we are no longer able to call security and ask that the bloke flashing his penis around in the Top Shop changing room in front of our 12 year old dd and her friends is removed.

I do believe in the phenomenon of being transgender. I do believe people people are genuinely born in the wrong body. I believe trans women born in the wrong body should have the same rights as other women.

Everyone on this thread and many many more believes that some people are genuinely trans. And we have deep sympathy with them and the difficulties they will have encountered. And we'll accommodate them in our spaces out of empathy and compassion.

Sadly making this a legal requirement will mean the end of that courtesy as it will be abused, by abusive men. And who will suffer? Natal females and the genuine trans women. But no one cares about that it appears. Don't kid yourself you're on their side - you're not, you're fuelling the mysoginists.

LangCleg · 12/12/2017 09:45

1DAD2KIDS when that tiny minority group centres its activism on removing fought-for rights for women in a sexist, patriarchal society, too right I'm going to say something. Tell the TRAs to back off with self-ID and I'll stop pointing out the sexism and homophobia of their activism.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 12/12/2017 09:45

1Dad

If you can't be arsed reading the thread and trying to understand the concerns raised, there is no reason for us to try to convince you. You think we are mean Terfs, we get it. Now piss off, we have things to discuss

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 12/12/2017 09:45

I do believe people people are genuinely born in the wrong body

You cannot be born in the wrong body. YOu are born in your own body. You can be unhappy with it, and you should be helped to find ways through that. Wrong body/right body is horseshit though.

1DAD2KIDS · 12/12/2017 09:47

Datun That's like saying it's ok to pick on men of any minority group based on birth sex. By the same theory there could be no racism towards men of a marginalised ethnic group because a man apperently can't be a minority group.

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