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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
SparklyUnicornTractors · 12/12/2017 08:16

So really 'hate' means stating facts and other points of view?

MillicentFawcett · 12/12/2017 08:16

Really, MN deleted your account because you're a 'good little ally'. Don't believe that for a moment Hmm

Do you know, what I find particularly odious about posts like yours is that they inevitably follow a couple of painful posts from women laying bare some personal distress in order to illustrate how much this affects them. But you just don't care about their pain or the fact that they've bravely shared their mental health issues caused directly by male violence against women. Nope, just crushed under the weight of the transborg ideology rolling on

agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 08:18

Yep I do.

To state that trans women are really men is as insulting as saying a lesbian should really go out and get some cock.

Trans women are women, they are our fellow women and I will fight to the end for them to have the same rights as us.

MillicentFawcett · 12/12/2017 08:18

Flowers for @copperkettles and @RedToothBrush. We shouldn't have to lay our souls bare to illustrate why this proposed amend to the GRA would have enormous personal consequences. I'm sorry for what you've been through.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 08:19

Whatever mn decided to delete your (and your wife's) accounts for, it won't have been for going against the consensus. Non GC people are allowed on mn.

So I imagine this post will also go soon (PBP?) and you'll go and whine that mn is howwible and twansphobic. Diddums.

Goatgirly · 12/12/2017 08:20

Across many posts and threads here and on Twitter I've seen people ask for a definition of woman, and no-one can, without resorting to gender stereotypes.
Sex is biology, gender isn't. How is trying to protect biological status above rigid and harmful gender stereotypes hateful?

I'm happy to discuss the matter, to see it from both ways, but I've yet to see an argument for trans ideology that uses facts and logic, it's all emotion and using words like TERF and bigots to shut down the conversation. There is no discussion forthcoming. I understand the feelings surrounding it all, I get that trans people need support in specific areas, and to have their rights backed up, but current trans ideology is dictating that their needs are more important than women's, and I'm gobsmacked that there are women accepting this as willingly as they are.

There are some hateful posts on MN towards trans people, but on the whole the argument found here is logical, uses facts and shows empathy for fellow natal women, something that TRAs forget in their race to be the ultimate women.

Goatgirly · 12/12/2017 08:22

"To state that trans women are really men is as insulting as saying a lesbian should really go out and get some cock. "

But it's really not. Being a lesbian is about sexual preferences, being trans is fine, but on a base level they are still men, no transition can change that, they are XY through every single cell of their body.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 12/12/2017 08:23

We need more than ' you are all bad and you should be ashamed'. That's not a point, that's a conclusion, based on no evidence. What is the basis of your argument? Nice user name too agoodlittleally

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 08:24

Funny that the parallel chosen is exactly what some transpeople are saying, innit.

KittiesInsane · 12/12/2017 08:26

If transwomen are women, then what is a woman?

I’m serious. I suspect that your definition would exclude me from womanhood.

Goatgirly · 12/12/2017 08:27

Me too kitties.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 08:34

(When you do it - not that you will - the definition needs to be non-circular, not based on offensive outdated stereotypes, and include both trans identifying males and all not-trans identifying females)

hackmum · 12/12/2017 08:36

agoodlittleally: "Hang your heads in shame!"

No, you hang your head in shame. You're the one who thinks it's acceptable for female prisoners to share their space with a violent male sex offender. You're the one who would force teenage girls to share a changing room with an adolescent male. You're the one who thinks a female sportswoman who has worked hard to succeed should be forced to compete a man much stronger and faster than her. You're the one who thinks that rape victims should be forced to submit to internal examinations by a man. You're the one who thinks that an elderly woman in a care home should be subjected to being bathed by a man, or called a "bigot" if she refuses.

Shame on you. Shame on you.

DoctorTwo · 12/12/2017 08:43

Well @agoodlittleally, be prepared to be called bigoted and transphobic when you refuse to suck a TIM's 'female' penis. This is already happening.

titchy · 12/12/2017 08:44

Agooittleally - one of the things about MNers, that we all have in common, is that we listen to arguments, debate them, consider them. As a community MN is well educated, intelligent and aware. Some are gender critical, some are not. Some are male, some female, some trans. Some are straight, some gay, some both and neither. We don't all have the same views, but we respect others' rights to have those views, and to state them, and debate them. We don't shut down debate because we don't agree with it, we listen to it respectfully and argue respectfully any opposing views we might have.

Can you do the same? We'd genuinely be interested, and respect your views.

Can you?

Datun · 12/12/2017 08:44

but we are not allowed to challenge you as Mumsnet HQ shuts us down.

Well go on then!! Challenge!

Say something. Use words. Use an argument.

Stop just yelling, stamping your foot and saying why are you so mean.

With the entire English language at your disposal, you think you’d come up with at least one point.

MentholBreeze · 12/12/2017 08:46

Very eager to hear the definition of woman that covers TIMs and me, but not my sons or male partner.

I'm happy to kick it off - although I don't include TIMs in 'Woman', but do include TIFs (so not trans exclusionary, sorry):
Woman: Adult human female
where
Female: Of the sex which produces large, immobile gametes (ie. eggs)

B0033 · 12/12/2017 08:47

ally my point was - mnhq does not delete threads like these because discussing our concerns and being gender critical does not equate to hate speech. I, like many, many others, want to see vulnerable people's protected across all classes, orientations, races, etc. As far as I'm concerned, this should not be at the expense of women. Human females.

CautionTape · 12/12/2017 08:48

Sex segregation is considered necessary and appropriate in certain circumstances by virtually all right minded people.

It's often a child protection matter.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 12/12/2017 08:55

agoodlittleally

Your post still stands. Undeleted.

We all await your considered points

Betty185 · 12/12/2017 08:57

To state that trans women are really men is as insulting as saying a lesbian should really go out and get some cock.

Those two statements are directly contradictory and, if you believe the latter, welcome to TERF-dom because that is not an acceptable view to the transactivists.

Answer this - If lesbians are women who are attracted to women and the group 'women' includes transwomen with penises (which the vast majority keep) then lesbians should be attracted to people with penises, shouldn't we?

That's not just a hypothetical question (although it does test to what extent you really think transwomen are women). Transactivists claim to be oppressed by the 'cotton ceiling' (like the 'glass ceiling feminists fought to smash but what they want to smash their way through is lesbians' underwear).

Look at these links and then tell me which is it - are transwomen not the same as actual women or do us lesbians needs to learn to like penis if we're not to be evil, transphobic bigots (or just 'vagina fetishists)?

www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/the-cotton-ceiling/
terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Datun · 12/12/2017 09:03

...is as insulting as saying a lesbian should really go out and get some cock.

Which is precisely what transactivists say. If you disagree with this you are a terf bigot.

I’m also looking forward to your answer to Betty185 question.

If it makes it any easier, you can just list the bits you do agree with the bits you don’t. Because you clearly don’t think that transwomen are women, if you also disagree that lesbians should go for cock.

agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 09:03

I do not believe men self identify as women just to oppress other woman, assault them in public toilets, beat them in running races and invade their safe spaces.

I do believe in the phenomenon of being transgender. I do believe people people are genuinely born in the wrong body. I believe trans women born in the wrong body should have the same rights as other women.

I cannot understand being trans, it is completely alien to me. Just because you cannot understand something it does not mean you should be fearful and it does not mean it doesn’t exist.

RedToothBrush · 12/12/2017 09:03

Millicent I don't need flowers but thank you.

It's something I've talked about many times to help break a taboo and make sure that women understand that if they are in a similar position they are absolutely with in their rights to complain / seek help rather than suffer in silence.

If my experiences can do something positive then I was worth every spending every penny on. My treatment helped my mental health despite not getting any direct mental health support. Merely being listened to and respected made a huge difference.

But then all of this ultimately comes down to money.

Women are deemed not worth spending money on. Women don't complain so their problems are hidden. They can simply have benefits removed because their suffering is unimportant. Gendered toys and gendered products make more money for businesses. Reducing women to a perfect image they must attain makes money. Being able to discriminate against women via the back door 'saves money' for business. Women having less representation means they can't put forward an alternative economic argument on this. Surgery is privatised. Indeed remove state provision and force women to go private for support too. Your kids are fucked up? Hey there is money to be made in your misery.

This is another irony about Labour's unquestioning support for TRAs and the fact that it's tending to come from the more left wing parts of the party. It's horrendously capitalist driven. Photos of TRAs parading with signs shouting 'fuck neo-liberalism' are hilarious. The inability of these people to separate socially liberal from economic libertarianism isn't lost on me.

This is exploitation of emotional distress and is grim to see. It liberates no one. It enslaves.

BeyondAssignation · 12/12/2017 09:05

Cotton ceiling. Cause metaphorically forcing through a lesbians underwear with your cock isn't at all rapey.

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