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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 11/12/2017 18:02

blackdog so is one way around this for any female who doesn't want to share with someone with a penis (for the sake of any ambiguity in language) to self-identify as trans/ non-binary and demand a single room for the price of a shared one? Would this work? And really, if it would, why would any student not do this? Surely most people would prefer a single room?

BatShite · 11/12/2017 18:12

I would put the trans female with another female of course. If that other female had any problem then they could request a switch but they probably wouldn’t - younger people are much less prejudiced.

Believing in biology makes someone prejudiced. Caring about womens rights makes someone prejudiced. Great.

I don't think young people are less 'prejudiced' at all. I think they are more likely to bow to social pressures. Indeed most 'young' people (I say this, while being 30 myself) I speak to on this absolutely do not accept that males are females. They feel they cannot actually say this though due to the cries of 'transphobia' for the most basic of statements. So they hide their discomfort.

Young males and females sharing rooms also has a very important safety aspect. Ignoring the discomfort for a second, there is a reason why males and females are separated.

Or do you think sex segregation is unnecessary and unneeded fullstop? Just curious. Its not a view I personally agree with of course, but its the only way this argument makes sense. While near all sexual crime is committed by male people and (outside of prisons) the victims are overwhelmingly female..I really do think that the opportunity for such predators should be limited as much as possible. hence, females needing space away from males.

Out of interest where would you put a lesbian? Would they be allowed to share with a shy Muslim? Or should lesbians only share with one another?

A lesbian is not a male person. Thats actually a very homophobic question tbh. Disgusting.

BatShite · 11/12/2017 18:16

The answer is all over the thread. Trans-identified males, aka trans women, will gain the right to access all sex-based places, services and programmes currently limited to women. Trans-identified females, aka trans men, will gain precisely nothing (because gender identity is already a protected characteristic).

But actual transsexual people (ie. those with dysphoria)..will gain nothing. As as things currently stand, they already legally have these rights .

That's why the proposed bill is a men's rights bill.

I may possibly have read it wrong, but I am fairly sure this is the point Toad was making?

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 18:22

Blackdog

If a transwoman (who is still an intact male) selects ‘F’ as her gender, I have to allocate her a female share. And not in any way mention this to the woman she is sharing with. I am completely obliged to match up a woman with a man, (whether the woman is Muslim, a rape victim, or even just a bit shy) and be proud that I haven’t been a bigot or a transphobe, and have done my job.

When I was 19 and going to university I had just emerged from a violent abusive relationship. I had problems relating to other women even and was so thankful I got my own room. I would have absolutely lost my shit if I had had to share with a man. I imagine I would have dropped out if there was nothing else that could be done.

Thank you for your post. I'm hoping to arrange a face to face meeting with my MP and I will take him a copy of it and spell out exactly why I wouldn't have been able to cope with this situation and how oppressive it is to young women. I know you have no choice. It's not your fault. But it's disgusting.

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 18:28

Yeah thanks hipster. It crossed my mind...
Yes essentially people can request a single room, (that they pay for) if we have one available. However, we have far more shared spaces available and singles are in short supply. Someone self-identifying as trans would receive priority placement in a single (rightly so - please don’t assume I have any problem with this).

So transwomen are able to choose whether they a - share a room or not, plus b- choose which gender to share with.

Your average run of the mill born with female sexual characteristics and getting on with her existence probably (undoubtedly) assumes that she will be sharing a room with another woman. It probably hasn’t occurred to her that she could end up sharing with Danielle Muscato.

The woman has to make alternative arrangements (spending more money and putting herself through more hassle) in order to get what she wants, when the transwoman essentially gets whatever she feels like at any given time. On a plate. With a (poppin) cherry on top.

Is it really prejudice to not want to share a room with Danielle Muscato?

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 18:29

I also notice that many trans women colonise female space and female roles in far greater proportions than one would expect, this entirely feeds into the fetish idea.

They do. They make a point of it. This is transactivism. They don't give a fuck how women might feel about it.

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 18:37

I know Ereshkigal. And i’m so sorry. We try to avoid it happening, but unless the person flags themselves as trans, we have no way of supporting you, and other women in your position. Certainly in my situation, if someone self identifies as a female requiring a shared room, we have to treat her as such and match her with another female.

I completely understand that people should not have to disclose confidential personal information. But when other people are impacted by your right to withhold that information, and you dont have the empathy to understand (or you don’t care) when it could harm them, that’s an issue. And it’s an issue that we are legalizing to the detriment of women.

Datun · 11/12/2017 18:38

They do. They make a point of it.

^^this. A thousand times over.

Men who respect women and don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable or threatened, simply don’t do it.

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 18:42

I don't blame you at all blackdog. I think it will be hard for my MP to patronise me, dismiss my feelings and handwave away my fears if I go into detail about my situation then. I think it will be difficult for him to say to my face that he doesn't care.

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 18:45

Men who respect women and don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable or threatened, simply don’t do it^.

No. MTF trans people like Miranda Yardley respect women, and they don't invade our spaces.

TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt · 11/12/2017 19:32

Absolutely, wholeheartedly applaud the OP. Very, very well said.

If the proposed bill actually happens...and I'm just idly wondering here...what would happen if ALL women (or at least the ones with a conscience) immediately identified officially as male? I like to think it would make a point, or at least make a mockery of the whole shambles. Or would it make it worse...?

Just interested in people's thoughts...?

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 19:53

I was thinking that earlier badgers - that with anyone dodgy using women's facilities, we might be safest in the men's!

Copperkettles · 11/12/2017 22:04

I had surgery about 3 weeks ago. I have several chronic health conditions (one is pretty humiliating to manage at worst). I have suffered a sexual assault at the hands of a doctor. It was at a private clinic so he had a lot of control. He sent the nurse out of the room, sedated me and assaulted me. I've had other bad experiences at the hands of hcp's, both male and female. I'm extremely vulnerable as a result and have ptsd.

Now for the record I'm generally ok with male doctors. I can tell pretty quickly if I'm safe with them or not. Gut instinct and all that. I've met some lovely ones who have been brilloant at their jobs.

Whilst in hospital the other dat I had a 5', petite female nurse. She was awful. I felt profoundly unsafe with her. She was dismissive of my severe pain and she did something without my consent. I had a panic attack and couldn't stop crying for 10 minutes. This was 3 hrs post surgery.

I was so scared I couldn't speak up and say 'please give me another nurse.' I knew I had the right to ask but I felt so vulnerable and was worried she'd come back and hurt me. They were very short staffed and rushed off their feet. Another nurse saw me crying and just gawped at me. She didn't step in and try to find out if I was ok. I think it's daim saying anyone can ask for another hcp. Do you not understand how easily someone can be intimidated and silenced? Do you not understand the fear that comes from being bedbound and half sedated still without throwing past assaults into the mix? I couldn't speak up and it was just a female nurse. There will be many Muslim women, fgm survivors and rape survivors who would prefer to not access health care at all than risk being treated by a man. Women will at worst die.

I had to get a carer in after my op. The agency said did I have a preference for a male or female carer. I nearly cried, I was so relieved it was ok to choose. Male doctors might be fine. A carer washing you at home when you're home and sore and scared, well I couldn't have coped with a male. I have met lovely people who are trans identified males. I'm sure they wouldn't hurt a fly. I still just wanted to know I was safe and in control at my most vulnerable. And yes, I had an unpleasant female nurse in the hospital. They do sadly exist. But please don't throw women like me under a bus in the interests of standing by your 'trans-sisters.' I don't want it to be the case but I need protecting. If I have the chance to lower my risk of being hurt in any way, I will take it. That for me means choosing a female hcp over a man in certain situations.

Copperkettles · 11/12/2017 22:18

Actually I think this needs spelling out more.

Can you imagine a Muslim woman in her 50's with poor English and symptoms indicating cervical cancer. She already has a piss poor chance of going to be checked out. Can you imagine her turning uo for a smear to find a TIM is going to do it. Do you think she a) speaks up and asks for a woman hcp or b) turns around and goes home thinking to herself 'I can't cope with this. My symptons are probably nothing.'

What about a teenage girl who's been raped by her father since she was a young child?. She has internal damage and is possibly pregnant. Does she demand another hcp or does she sit there feeling terrified and leave and try to manage things alone?

What about the woman who's trying to leave prostitution and who's already terrified of men and anyone in authority and who needs a really safe (female) space where she can trust she's going to be helped physically and mentally post-rape as sensitively as possible? Can you see her having the guts to say 'I want a different hcp' when offered a TIM?

There are so many scenarios where women will simply opt not to access healthcare. They will be too scared. There will be deaths. Completely innecessary deaths. You'd be naive not to see that.

If any of the above are happy and comfortable as individuals being treated by TIMs then of course that is fine. But taking away choice is dangerous. This is not about individuals.

tinkerbellone · 11/12/2017 22:26

This post is everything I have been trying to explain for so long! Well done OP. Xxx

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2017 23:13

Copperkettles hits a nerve there with me.

I have a severe phobia of doctors. It caused me significant issues and is related to a lack of trust following a bad experience.

One of the elements of it is that I feel unable to challenge or say when I feel unhappy. It's debilitating. I go completely mute and am unable to speak.

When I had DS I had to have all this sorted before getting pregnant. I was granted a C-section for many complex reasons but one of their main justifications was they felt it preferable than me trying to give birth at home unattended out of fear.

Now this is an irrational fear but with very understandable and rational causes - the doctors recognised that my behaviour was caused by an experience that gave me legitimate cause for concern.

They helped me, because they had previously had patients in the past who had done this and behaved in a way that endangered the life of them and their baby. This is a known pattern of behaviour in a vulnerable patient group.

There are other similar examples where vulnerable people avoid medical attention because of a greater fear.

I was fortunate in that I was able to recognise the problem, seek out someone who could help me and I had DH to advocate for me (and was deemed a necessary part of my care as a result).

My treatment was amazing but it also upsets me. It's not something that is available to a lot of women. There are regular threads on MN from women in similar situations who can not get the support they need. Some are actively laughed at, sneered at, made to feel guilty or demanding by the responses HCPs give. They are deliberately given inaccurate and false information - sometimes because of ideological beliefs.

I make a point of saying that even normally very articulate and self assured women often struggle to do what they would normally do, in a day to day situation during and after birth of a child.

They often don't know their rights in hospital and feel as if they should be grateful even if they have been treated appallingly by certain attitudes within our society which encourage women to know their place and suck it up. Afterall they should just be grateful their child is alive and is healthy. (Fuck their mental and physical health, that's unimportant).

And it doesn't just affect people with a past history. It also affects women in a situation which they find more traumatic than they anticipated and feel particularly vulnerable.

Sometime's 'irrational' isn't irrational at all. It's very real and points to an imbalance or abuse of power.

Refusing a doctor, or to be moved is something that some simply don't have the ability to do or feel entitled or have the right to do. Threads on medical consent are utterly heart wrenching.

And yes it does affect women far more often because we are taught not to challenge.

thebewilderness · 12/12/2017 05:05

Over and over I see women expressions of concern for the health and safety of women and children described as hate.
I have to ask if you really believe this zero sum view you are expressing, or are you just trying to silence women with a thought ending cliche? The 3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

carrotandcornsoup · 12/12/2017 05:29

Copperkettles, that sounds awful. I’m so sorry.

Thanks to all who have liked my op and shared their stories. I honestly think this thread should be required reading for every politician mindlessly championing the trans cause. THIS is how women really feel about it. I would love MNHQ to invite some of them on for a live chat.

OP posts:
MentholBreeze · 12/12/2017 06:34

Another problem with the shared accommodation policy is that if many people get wind of it, they'll find the way to afford the single room - at which point you don't have those single rooms for people that need them for medical reasons.

I can't actually understand the thought process - if a TIM has had genital surgery, they have healthcare requirements that would make a single room appropriate. If they have their penis, then sharing with an uninformed female would seem to me to be a massive breach of that woman's rights.

If I was the establishment with this policy I would be praying that it doesn't get public.

notafish · 12/12/2017 07:50

blackdoggotmytongue Are the shared rooms just for 2'people or more people? Are they actually sharing a room they sleep in or sharing living spaces? I can't believe your employers don't use the exceptions in the Equality Act. We'll I do believe ypu, I mean I can't understand why other people can't recognise the issue of expecting a female to share with a male bodied person when tgey'be expressly requested a female room mate. What's the point in giving anyone a choice if choice for trans identified people is the only valid choice.

agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 08:02

Luckily any politician who supported the tripe spouted in the OP would get as much respect as Donald Trump did when he tweeted Britain First but that’s not the point I’m here to make.

Hi everyone, this is my first post but not because I’m a troll, I posted earlier up the thread but Mumsnet took the decision to delete my long standing account (and also that if my wife’s - and no I am not a man, my lesbian wife) because our views were not aligned with the views of the OP.

So congratulations! It looks like you TERFs have infiltrated Mumsnet HQ.

But before you pat yourselves in the back, and before this post is deleted, I want to state there are many of us who are disgusted with your stance but we are not allowed to challenge you as Mumsnet HQ shuts us down.

As much as you claim the OP isn’t hate speech, the number of women who have come on Mumsnet to say ‘I supported trans rights until I saw the feminist boards on here’ shows you are indeed spreading hate.

Our trans allies marched for marriage equality, for gay rights, for feminism and this is how you repay them?

Hang your heads in shame!

B0033 · 12/12/2017 08:05

Mumsnet is one of the only places online where people can actually discuss this issue. As far as I've seen, mnhq deletes hateful language towards transfolk.

Shutting the discussion down isn't going to win hearts.

hipsterfun · 12/12/2017 08:07

Try saying it again nicely and let’s see how we go, eh?

agoodlittleally · 12/12/2017 08:08

Thanks you BO333 and Mumsnet I hope you are listening!

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 12/12/2017 08:09

Do you have an argument beyond 'You should be ashamed'?

Because we're clearly very much not ashamed. We're clear in our position and our philosophy and I'm personally very clear that nothing here goes against my passionate support for equality for LGB people and others.

So anything else. Before you go?

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