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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 16:10

Yy hemlock

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/12/2017 16:11

None of them actually listen. They just hear what they want to hear.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/12/2017 16:13

I still want to know what rights trans people are going to gain if this law goes through.

I've seen this asked several times in several places but so far nobody has actually bothered to answer it.

MillicentFawcett · 11/12/2017 16:17

No health professional would be allowed to treat vulnerable patients as a ‘fetish’.

And yet they do. There are countless cases of male HCPs assaulting patients. To reduce the risk of assault, women have the right to be asked to be treated by another woman.

And if you're labouring under the misapprehension that trans-identifying men don't assault women - they commit crime at the same rate as men. In the UK, almost half of TIMs currently serving time are inside for sexual offences.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 16:23

Equal rights?

I'd like to retain the right to be treated by/housed with/compete against those of roughly equal size, anatomy, hormones and penissyness.

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 16:30

PleaseDontGoadTheToad

The answer is all over the thread. Trans-identified males, aka trans women, will gain the right to access all sex-based places, services and programmes currently limited to women. Trans-identified females, aka trans men, will gain precisely nothing (because gender identity is already a protected characteristic).

That's why the proposed bill is a men's rights bill.

Datun · 11/12/2017 16:36

A DBS check didn’t stop Jimmy Savile. Just saying.

Who was given access to dozens of minors in hospital.

PricklyBall · 11/12/2017 16:37

I'm done trying to engage with Daim. She/he is a patronising prick who doesn't give a shiny shit about whether women get the choice as to who they share access to intimate space with or who they allow access to conduct intimate physical exams. Because ultimately that's what this is about. Women's right to autonomy. Women's right to space of their own. Women's right to bodily integrity.

It's not about "irrational fears". It's not about pearl clutching. It's not about being broad versus narrow minded.

It's about being allowed to control our own lives - the very thing the patriarchy has always wanted to deny us. Same old male supremacy, siny new sparkling pink-and-rainbow glittery unicorn clothes.

And Daim, if she's female, is doing the same job of policing the patriarchy that the woman picketing the only abortion clinic in 200 miles in the American Midwest is doing. The same job as the village elder defending fgm as "an important part of upholding our traditions." The same job as a female doctor carrying out sex selective abortions even when she knows the women have been forced into it. The same job as the woman luring vulnerable refugee girls into the arms of traffickers who will force them into the sex trade.

Daim, your feminism is so busy centring men you've lost sight of the women you're shafting.

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 16:52

Titchy - you are absolutely right - in this instance I am able to ‘run out of’ shared rooms and have to allocate a single. It’s what we do when people request gender inclusive housing but none of the potential shares agree to it (daim’s supposition that ‘younger people don’t care’ is blatantly false btw - going by the responses to my emails on the matter, about 10% of them don’t care, and 90% request sex-specific Housing).
In this particular instance of Sophie’s choice, I elect to protect the woman, and lie to the transwoman, leaving me open to criticism because I am discriminating against the transwoman and not giving her the same opportunities as her cisgender peers.
This is easy enough. (Transwoman concerned works in sex education and advocates for free sex without hang-ups btw).
In other cases where trans women select F, I have no knowledge. This puts their room share in the dubious position of having to decide to out themselves as a transphobe and a bigot by requesting a move. In an environment where such a request would be viewed as proof of such an attitude.
The only people who really have a choice are the trans women. Unless ciswomen start claiming they are trans and need a single room.

Look, i’ve Shared a lot closer space than that with dudes. Knowingly. My concern isn’t for me. Despite being on the end of the usual sexual attacks and derogatory treatment (fortunately not rape) i’m strong enough to cope. But I do have legitimate concerns that any real choice is being taken away from women who are not. Surely we have a duty of care to protect women, not just trans women? Why does one automatically get preferential treatment?

UnbornMortificado · 11/12/2017 17:01

Brilliant post.

I worry about the world my son is growing up in but god knows I worry more for my daughters.

BatShite · 11/12/2017 17:02

Despite it being damaging to both women and genuine transsexuals.

This is a point that needs driven home. Even if you don't care about women (which is sad) its also detrimental to transsexual people, the very people that those arguing for the legislation presumably think it will help?

The whole HCP thing is bizarre. I cannot imagine anyone thinking that a male person wanting a prostate check to be done by another male person would be a bigot. So why is it so easy for some to say women who want real women are bigots? My husband has never been abused. However he still requests male people for intimate exams. He is just more comfortable with a male person to do intimate exams. There does not have to be any specific reason for it. Just the thought of someone berating him for this choice..I cannot imagine it.

Also this, you can refuse for any reason and easily get another appointment is utter bullshit. At my surgery it takes a month at least for non-urgent appointments. A month can make a very big difference for many health issues. It is wrong to expect people to put themselves at risk in that way, when it would be easy (and actually make sense to) to just keep the class woman/female excluding men/males.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 17:05

Blackdog, this housing policy should absolutely be made transparent on your organization's website -- that you allocate 'same-gender, which may mean mixed-sex' accommodation.

It should be specified right down to 'if a student says they are trans, we will allocate them a separate room and bill for shared.'

Then at least anyone who does NOT want to share with a male knows what they need to do...

PersianCatLady · 11/12/2017 17:06

blackdog
Can I just clarify, if someone says they are trans and don't want to share, then they get a single room at the same cost of a shared room, with no checks on the truthfulness of this information??

PricklyBall · 11/12/2017 17:10

Like a lot of other posters on the thread, I've shared accommodation with men in university hiking societies/mixed hostels,/mountain huts. I've had gynae exams from male doctors. I am in the fortunate group of women who has never been seriously sexually assaulted.

This is not about fear, it is about defending women's right to make choices about their own lives.

For the lurkers, to be clear, Daim's miracle "middle position" where you get paired up with a transwoman in a university hall of residence, complain and get given a new room will not be on the cards.

Let me tell you the story of Danielle. The picture of Danielle upthread is a few years old, so because Danielle is now making a bit of an effort (after several years of rocking a full beard and dark suit), I attach a more recent photo. Danielle has proved to be such a thoroughly unpleasant person to live with Danielle's own parents have kicked Danielle out of the house. Danielle is now living in a women's homeless shelter. Two of the women there objected to having to share a room with Danielle. These are homeless women - it is hard to imagine a woman in a more vulnerable, desperate situation than this. Were they given the option of a different room within the shelter (the option Daim would have you believe will continue to be available if self ID legislation goes through)? No, they were not. They were kicked out, back onto the streets, for being transphobic. AFAIK, Danielle is still living in the shelter.

a letter to the woman who called me a terf
Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 17:11

Ha, I think we may be thinking along the same lines, PersianCat.

But it's OK, because no one in the history of ever has falsely claimed to be trans.

Nuffaluff · 11/12/2017 17:13

Interesting photos on Danielle's wall there.

PersianCatLady · 11/12/2017 17:14

The way j read it is that anyone can get a single room for the price of a shared room by claiming to be trans and not wanting to share.

I must be wrong though because it seems too stupid written down.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 17:15

Currently, Blackdog is in the unenviable position of quietly trying to ensure that female students are not left with a choice of male roommate or finding their own room.

Would, say, Lily Madigan do the same, if put in that post? Or would they be wilfully blind to the reasons for requesting same-sex accommodation in the first place?

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 17:21

Yes. Because we class it as ‘medical reasons’ - so the same as if they say they need a single room because they suffer from sleep apnoea and have medical equipment etc etc.
Occasionally we ask for a doctor’s note confirming medical diagnosis but very rarely. And there is no way we would do that if an individual self-identified as trans - there would be no actual point, as you can self identify as trans without seeing a doctor. The only ‘verification’ necessary is self identification.

We can’t put anything regarding treating trans people differently on the website. It attracts a social media shit storm and leads to accusations of discrimination. We have to be seen to treat them the same as everyone else (even when the reality is special treatment, not the same treatment).

Lance, if we put that mixed-sex statement in the website, with no way to opt out of mixed-sex accommodation, we run the risk of losing female applicants. I’m sure this wouldn’t be a problem for daim, as women who don’t want to share with trans women shouldn’t receive an education anyway.

We are trying to work out if there is any way we can legally ask for birth sex as well as current gender. But it’s a minefield. And currently relies solely on the trans person to self identify as such.

On the face of it, this isn’t an issue for the ‘everyday’ transwoman who doesn’t want women to feel vulnerable or distressed. They self identify and we can put measures in place to ensure everyone is happy. The ones who don’t flag themselves as trans tend to be the more militant ‘fuck you, I’m a woman and you are a bigot if you don’t recognize my right to bring my penis into your bedroom’. And the ones that take to social media to blacklist your college.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/12/2017 17:22

Prickly, that is so awful, poor woman. Instead of helping her, she is being turfed out, in favour of this nasty individual, so as not to appear bigoted or discriminatory. I think most of the people here agree with the op, because it is already happening. some of you have given some very worrying examples, and if this legislation goes ahead, we will see that more and more. There will be no women only spaces, they will be taken up by men claiming to be Female, when they are not, and using that for their advantage. I bet this would not happen to men only spaces, I am sure the legislation would ensure that biological men's rights and spaces are protected first.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 17:24

Lance, if we put that mixed-sex statement in the website, with no way to opt out of mixed-sex accommodation, we run the risk of losing female applicants

Yes. Indeed. Women might vote with their feet, and that might make the moneymakers sit up and take notice.

therealposieparker · 11/12/2017 17:27

Aside for unfettered access to women's spaces I cannot really see what else trans people want that they don't have.

I also notice that many trans women colonise female space and female roles in far greater proportions than one would expect, this entirely feeds into the fetish idea.

The bloke with bad hair and heels in my local Tesco doesn't have to wear garish make up to work to prove a point and yet he does, he still marches around like a man though. The guy that dresses like a street sex worker and parades around with his kids is no better.

It's always a performance and one that, frankly, annoys the shit out of me.

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 17:36

We’re a not for profit. There are no money-makers. We rely on government funding and donors. Our students are scholarshipped to a large extent. Without applicant numbers, both government and private donors dry up and we close our doors. There isn’t anyone impacted except the employees and the potential students. It’s a very niche space, and isn’t a traditional college setting where students going elsewhere would trigger a response...

Datun · 11/12/2017 17:52

PricklyBall

You forgot to mention that whilst Danielle was in that woman’s homeless shelter, he sent out a tweet on International Woman’s Day saying if you don’t believe I am a woman, you can suck my dick.

But, according to daim, that must be a quite genuine expression of womanhood and solidarity with fellow females.

blackdoggotmytongue

There are exemptions to the GRA. The wording is “using a proportionate means for a legitimate aim”.

People are not always aware and don’t invoke it. Because it is based on interpretation. But you can.

hipsterfun · 11/12/2017 17:57

blackdog, are you sure you’ve been vague enough and nobody reading this could figure out who you are? Sorry to be paranoid on your behalf!

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