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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
SparklyUnicornTractors · 11/12/2017 15:10

No health professional would be allowed to treat vulnerable patients as a ‘fetish’.

Uhm, you don't read the papers then?! Seriously, if this never happened, ever, where did all the guidelines on safeguarding come from? Are the serious case reviews fictional? I doubt the serious case review boards are 100% female so it's going to be hard to pin 'irrational woman' on them.

Essentially you put being 'kind' above the right of women to have feelings and boundaries. You don't agree that women are at risk of violence, you don't agree that sex segregation is desirable or necessary and you have zero respect for other people's perspectives, experiences and feelings when they clash with your personal values. Fine. Own it. You believe that anyone who does not agree with you is at best wrong and, silly and should be gently made to conform for their own good.

Do you not see the irony that these things hardly produce your 'kind and accepting' society?

titchy · 11/12/2017 15:14

Trans people have equal rights under current EO legislation as long as they have a GRC.

The proposal is that there is no need for a GRC or anything else for that matter. This goes far far far further than requesting a female HCP - which you won't be able to do any more - not that you seem remotely bothered by that.

Happy to have Brian from Hull stripping off in Top Shop or your local leisure centre flashing his cock in from of your 12 year old dd and her friends? Read the news - it's happening. Men are pretending to be women in order to access female spaces to attack females. It's happening, it's documented, it's not a 'remote possibility in the future'.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 15:16

And what on earth do you mean by 'would it be so bad if everything in the OP came true'?

Read the OP. Read it. If all of it came true, you are saying you don't care that:

-a woman feels vulnerable and exposed when her body is screaming no to the presence of a male.

-an elderly woman has to allow a male to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

-a child knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains because she will be beaten by a male.

-a bearded male walks into a toilet and makes a woman feel afraid and unsettled and worried.

-a board position at work that's designated for a woman goes to a 50 year old male.

-crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase and these 'women' are males and that the statistics are wrong.

Yes, there are good aspects to greater acceptance of variety in society. Of course there are. But are you seriously saying that the OP's concerns ARE the good aspects? And if not, are you saying that they are collateral damage, shrug shrug just a load of bigots so who cares, or that they should be avoided?

If they should be avoided - how?

blackdoggotmytongue · 11/12/2017 15:17

Daim, how would you deal with my current work situation? I allocate bedroom spaces to students, including internationals. There are three boxes that students can select for gender (note, gender). M, F and U. If a student selects U, I email them and ask if there is a gender they prefer to share with and we implement our Gender Inclusive Housing policy. Depending on their response, I then email all potential room shares and say we are allocating room shares and please select either gender inclusive housing, or gender specific housing.
(nb - occasionally we get people who request single rooms because they are trans and not comfortable with sharing - they are allocated single rooms and billed for shared so as not to discriminate on health grounds).

So far, so good.

If a transwoman (who is still an intact male) selects ‘F’ as her gender, I have to allocate her a female share. And not in any way mention this to the woman she is sharing with. I am completely obliged to match up a woman with a man, (whether the woman is Muslim, a rape victim, or even just a bit shy) and be proud that I haven’t been a bigot or a transphobe, and have done my job.

If someone selects F, I have to treat them as a female from that point forward.

I’m actually in that position RIGHT NOW in my job.

So, what do I do? I am paid to trample the rights of women, and my priority is to ensure that anyone identifying as trans gets (essentially) whatever they want.

I have no way of knowing what sex any of these people were at birth, nor if they have had reconstructive surgery.

I have a transwoman sitting on my file currently who selected F. The only reason I know she is a transwoman is because I needed to check the spelling of her name and I found her website.

This is not even giving women the CHOICE and allowing them the option of not sharing a bedroom with a man. This is allocating them a shared room on the basis of what gender people identify as, as otherwise you are a bigot and a transphobe.
Don’t tell me that women’s spaces aren’t being invaded. And that women have a choice. Any woman in this position who complains is held up as a pariah, by the trans women who believe they should be allowed to share a bedroom with a woman, because they believe they are a woman. Penis or otherwise.

guardianfree · 11/12/2017 15:17

What would happen daimbar?
Vulnerable children will be increasingly encouraged to take life altering drugs (as they're trans and not gay)
Sport for women will disappear as we know it in all the speed / contact sports
Self identification (as opposed to the current system) will enable any peverted man to identify as a woman, access hospital wards, changing rooms, women's safe spaces and women will be called out as haters and be unable to protect themselves.
We would enshrine lies and scientific untruths in the law.

But from what I've read, all of this has already been clarified but you have dismissed all this as bigotry. I'm never sure why people dismiss the views of those directly affected so easily - I have learnt to be very respectful when 'vulnerable' groups explain to me why something affects them in ways that I hadn't appreciated (thinking of disability rights, BAME, civil rights campaigners etc). For some reason trans groups have been given a pass to silence any objections and to insist that their rights trump every other group - even when they are in direct conflict.

CaptainBrickbeard · 11/12/2017 15:18

Daim, you aren’t getting that self ID threatens transgender people as well. It opens up the door for anyone to gain access to all sorts of private spaces based on their say-so.

If you truly don’t get it, please can you reflect on why the primogeniture rule is an exception to the GRA? Why do you think women will not be allowed to inherit first if they identify as men?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 11/12/2017 15:19

There also seems to be an assumption that once the GRA passes some blokes might fill in the forms and claim to identify as women in order to access women's areas.

I don't think they're even going to bother with that tbh. Not once they realise that you can literally have a beard and be 6'5 and go into the women's changing rooms and shout 'TERF scum!' at anyone who challenges you. There will just be blokes in the women's changing rooms. I'm sure they'll all be lovely gentle people and only there because they are scared of the men's. Hmm

titchy · 11/12/2017 15:22

Blackdog - you've run out of female only shared rooms haven't you, so you'll have to allocate them a single room...

daimbar · 11/12/2017 15:22

Blackdog I would put the trans female with another female of course. If that other female had any problem then they could request a switch but they probably wouldn’t - younger people are much less prejudiced.

Out of interest where would you put a lesbian? Would they be allowed to share with a shy Muslim? Or should lesbians only share with one another?

CaptainBrickbeard · 11/12/2017 15:28

I would be happy to share with a lesbian but not a gay man. It’s not about sexuality.

Any answer on why primogeniture is an exception?

IfNot · 11/12/2017 15:29

Ah, see, no no no no no.
Women have always shared their spaces with transsexuals. We have always given them the courtesy of entering our public toilets, changing in our changing rooms, all the while smiling in a vaguely friendly way, as if to say " it's no big deal."
I have stood at make up mirrors in clubs swapping lipstick with transsexual and transvestite men without feeling oppressed or outraged.
I'm sure we all have. Because we are raised to be caring, because we don't want to make anybody feel bad, because we are polite.
I had an argument with dp about the Top Shop changing rooms debacle . I said how worrying it was that the law might be changed so that any man can access spaces meant for teenage girls.
He scoffed. He said " but in the real world that wouldn't happen! Trans people would get beaten up for trying that!" I said " by who? Teenage girls??"
Women and girls have always budged up and made room. Men rely on this fact, but we can't just be squeezed off the bench because the "rights" of born men trump our safety, privacy, choice and boundaries.
I was dubious about all the trans stuff and frankly ignored it all as bonkers fantasising, until I started paying attention, and now I'm mad as Hell.
I support the right of anyone to wear anything they want and be called anything they want, but I am not going to perpetuate actual lies (like sex is a vague concept) and I'm not going to support ridiculous gender stereotypes or homophobia, which is where this seems to be coming from.
So, the effect of all this is that I'm not sure I want to be accommodating, polite and courteous anymore. Well played TRAs.

IfNot · 11/12/2017 15:31

My post was in response to this btw:
And would this really be so bad? If us women granted the marginalised 0.5% of trans women the permission to share our spaces?

titchy · 11/12/2017 15:33

Daim - the other female can't request a switch because they'll be labelled bigot. (They may not be young either by the way.)

Lesbians share the shame genitals, female under-privilege, PMT, need for sanitary protection etc as straight women - that's why they can share. It's not about preventing sexual attraction FFS.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/12/2017 15:40

Why are you so fixated on trans people @daimbar? This bill (if it goes through) will not change anything for trans people so I have no idea why you keep bringing them up.

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 15:47

Trans people are subject to thorough DRB checks like everyone else. No health professional would be allowed to treat vulnerable patients as a ‘fetish’.

I mean, honestly.

Firstly, the main objections here aren't about the trans person. They are about the women and their right to request a same sex HCP. Self-ID and the replacing of "sex" with "gender identity" in the proposed GRA amendment, removes this right, which they currently have. Can you not accept that women currently have this right and the government is proposing it be taken away?

Secondly, have you ever heard of safeguarding? Self-ID is a charter for abusive males, whether or not they believe themselves to be trans. Abusive males have spent entire lives working towards and living in positions of trust to enable offending - as Catholic priests, as scout leaders, as sports coaches, and yes, as doctors and other HCPs in women's medicine. What makes you think that the abusers will ignore a new loophole in the law, if it comes to pass?

What you can't seem to understand is that the women on this board actually support dysphoric trans people (ie transsexuals) and are not against "gender identity" being a protected characteristic. The only objection is that "gender identity" should overwrite "sex" as a protected characteristic. Women on this board support both being protected characteristics so that women retain their sex-based protections. That's it. That's literally it.

As things currently stand, transactivism is a men's rights movement, in which trans-identified males are fighting for the right to women's sex-based spaces, programs and protections. Where, I ask you, are the campaigns for similar for trans-identified females (aka trans men)? Where are the campaigns for special programs and affirmative actions for trans-identified females (aka trans men) to take a proportion of positions meant for men? Nowhere. Why? Transactivism is a sexist movement, that's why.

It's about time we reclaimed the word sexism if you ask me. Makes the state of play much clearer.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/12/2017 15:49

I am listening to your fears and I appreciate that many of you genuinely feel alarmed and frightened by trans women having equal rights.

Nobody on here is alarmed and frightened by transwomen having equal rights.

Transsexuals already have the right to use the toilets and changing rooms of their chosen gender. A transwomen/transman being allowed to use the female/male toilets and changing room is not a new right they have suddenly gained because they have been doing exactly that for years. I honestly have no idea why people keep going on about it as if it's a new thing because it isn't.

Transsexuals already have equal rights in law. This new bill will not change that. Name me one right that transwomen do not have that this new law change will bring them.

How many times does it need to be said that it is not transwomen that are the issue before it finally sinks in?

Nuffaluff · 11/12/2017 15:50

would put the trans female with another female of course. If that other female had any problem then they could request a switch but they probably wouldn’t - younger people are much less prejudiced.
There you have it- emotional blackmail. That's why young women might not request a switch- because they are worried about being labelled as prejudiced.
I'm really intrigued as to why you don't understand why a young woman might not be comfortable sharing with someone with male genitalia daim

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/12/2017 15:52

I would put the trans female with another female of course.

Really? So you would put this person in with the women?

a letter to the woman who called me a terf
RedToothBrush · 11/12/2017 15:54

I am listening to your fears and I appreciate that many of you genuinely feel alarmed and frightened by trans women having equal rights. I am not trying to invalidate your feelings, I simply disagree with you and hope some of you will begin to wonder if your fears are irrational.

Are you for real?

Would you like to patronise me a teeny bit more?

Thanks for calling me irrational. Nope, just not naïve.

IfNot · 11/12/2017 15:57

It makes me laugh, this idea that the young people of today are so fluid and non prejudiced . For a generation that don't believe in gender norms they sure do like labels.
I came of age in the 90s. I knew boys who sometimes slept with boys as well as girls, girls who sometimes slept with girls as well as boys. I don't recall any mention of "bi". It just was what it was. Lots of girls had short hair, ALL my boyfriends had long hair. Lots of guys wore eyeliner, and it was SO not cool to be sexist.

I feel like we have gone backwards.

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 16:00

Trans people do have equal rights. The same rights as everyone else as the same sex they were conceived as, born as, and still are.

The TRAs aren't after "equal", they're after "best".

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 16:01

Actually, replace "best" with "most specialest"

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2017 16:05

If that other female had any problem then they could request a switch but they probably wouldn’t - younger people are much less prejudiced.

Would they be allowed a switch if the law changes?

On the grounds that it was because they were sharing with someone trans?

The university certainly might not be obliged to honour the request.

This might leave women in an impossible position: her religion and family demand that she does not share with a man, yet the university refuse to move her because she is transphobic. Chances are she would lose money on the accommodation and be forced to find alternative housing privately at the last minute, when there is very little left or drop out.

HemlockSpartacus · 11/12/2017 16:06

If Daim was listening, even a little bit, there'd be no bullshit about us being scared of "equal rights".

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 16:10

Sorry - everyone else of the same sex

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