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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Blanchefleur · 11/12/2017 11:24

I don’t understand what you propose the solution to be? Trans women can’t work in the health care profession at all?

daimbar, what is it exactly that you don't understand? Nobody has said that transwomen can't work in health care!

Surely you must be able to understand that some women will specifically request a female HCP, especially for intimate examinations, regardless of whether or not you would.

The solution is very simple. It is that if a woman requests a female HCP then she sees an actual, biological female, not a biological male who 'identifies' as a woman.

MentholBreeze · 11/12/2017 11:26

NHS: yes, you are fully within your rights to request another practitioner.

There will never be a scanario where women are forced to be seen by anyone they feel uncomfortable with.

Actually, I think it's more likely that you will be deemed to have refused care.

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:26

I would share all my spaces with anyone who is trans. As long as they are not biological men.

It’s not about trans

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 11:27

No Daim it's not because they are trans, it's because they are male. And that's not hateful.

I can't see how logistically you can refuse on any terms. Surely this would mean the woman would have to go elsewhere, especially in small practices?

Plus, the women are put into the position of having to refuse individuals retrospectively, rather than stating a general requirement for a female practitioner (which would now include transwomen). They would have to know that a practitioner was transgender and then reject them. Surely that's more hurtful to a transwoman, because it would be a woman rejecting that person, rather than simply males.

I get that you are trying to be kind. But the needs of these two groups are in conflict. We have all been where you are, trying to argue that we should be kind. But we need to find another way to be kind, because this way harms women

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 11:28

Apologies for whataboutery, but I'm curious...

If a transwoman/TIM has some sort of complication with surgically altered genitalia and a transwoman/TIM GP is available, would it be hate to choose them over a female GP?

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 11:30

A quick google will bring up any number of articles about racist patients in the UK who have refused to be treated by black HCP. Read them and mentally replace the word 'black' with 'trans'. 'Racist' with 'transphobic'.

This is how we can expect women who refuse treatment from transwomen to be treated. This is what you are advocating.

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 11:30

Slightly less hypothetical, is a transwoman/TIM choosing to only have cavity searches by (biological) females only "hate"?

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:30

If a transwoman/TIM has some sort of complication with surgically altered genitalia and a transwoman/TIM GP is available, would it be hate to choose them over a female GP?

Cisphobia!

daimbar · 11/12/2017 11:32

No Beyond - that would be fine and sensible. Just like I have the freedom to choose any local GP I feel comfortable with.

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:34

daimbar

What?! So it’s hate for a woman to not want a transwomen, but it’s not hate for a transwoman do not want to woman?

Blanchefleur · 11/12/2017 11:35

daimbar : "Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?"

This is the part that you are just not getting.

We are talking about refusing to be treated by a transwoman because they are a man. It makes no difference whatsoever if the man is trans or not. The objection is to the biological male - any biological male, no matter what he calls himself.

When I ask to see one of the female GPs at my surgery, do you think that this means that I am expressing hate towards the male GPs?

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 11:37

It's just so sad to see that patriarchy has its claws so deep into young women that they truly believe up is down and reject even the most basic tenets of feminism, while calling it feminism.

As the OP pointed out, following generations are going to have so much unnecessary work to do.

BeyondAssignation · 11/12/2017 11:40

So it's not just fine, but sensible to choose someone with corresponding biology to your own. Just so long as you aren't a woman.

I can do even more what-about-ery...
If a woman has been abused by women and chooses only male HCPs, where does a transman/FIT HCP fit into that?

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:45

beyond

What if you’ve been explicitly abused by a transwoman? And you refuse someone on the basis that there are transwoman?

Like that joke :

“I’m really frightened of clowns”

“I’ve heard of that. Why?”

“One killed my dad”.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 11/12/2017 11:49

If my doctor tells me he needs to do an intimate exam and I ask to see his female colleague, he doesn't tell me I'm a sexist bigot. He respects that I'm the one in the vulnerable situation and has no problem at all with that choice. If I say I'm happy for him to do it, he will ask if I would like a female chaperone. Because intimate contact between different sexes when they are strangers is not usual in our society, has never been usual in our society, is against some people's cultures and religions, both parties are frequently uncomfortable with it and has on been used in situations of abuse Those very incidents have created the practice of choice and chaperones. So he has no problem calling one of the practice chaperones in who will be happy to support me. Neither will tell me I'm accusing him of being a sex offender if I choose that chaperone because we all know I'm not . These safeguarding practices weren't just thought up for fun, and they're hardly old hat, they are developed all the time and safeguarding training is constantly being updated to close any loophole that's emerged.

Under current legislation it states that in some situations it is legally allowed for women to have biologically woman only choices, if this can be justified in terms of the best interests of those women. Under the GRA, that would go. A woman is anyone who claims to be, and has no objective criteria. So the safeguarding practices stay exactly as they are, with everyone agreeing they are needed, and women will be allowed to request chaperones and ask for female practitioners with everyone enthusiastic about their right to do so. However if the chaperone or practitioner is a trans identified male (which I do not use to be rude, that person may not define themselves a transwoman) then legally they are a woman and that trumps everything else mentioned above.

If you believe that trained professionals never sex offend via their working lives, or seek positions to access victims, there are many case studies I can guide you to. I can also find you the link for the information shared by the prison services of the huge number of male sex offenders who are identifying as trans and giving among their reasons that they see this as a means to gain access to victims. This is about the risks of self identification, and about expecting biological women in a few highly vulnerable situations to collude in a lie that they do not believe, and put the needs and feelings of a biological man above their own.

Unless you believe in the biological sex of women as being rightfully second class citizens, how can that be justified? Particularly when you say any good professional and any decent person would not force themselves into situations that made another person obviously uncomfortable?

MacaroonMama · 11/12/2017 11:54

Thermostatpolice
Now try replacing 'trans' and 'transphobic' with 'male' and 'prefers not to see a male HCP for intimate gynae exams' - there is your parallel, right there.

It is not about being trans, it's about being male.

Does that make sense?

Annorlunda5 · 11/12/2017 11:54

I have a friend who has come out as a transman. If they were a doctor, I would be fine with them examining me... Because they are female. It's not about being trans.

However, how would we know if the doctor were trans? Say they passed really well, we could be examined by a trans doctor and not even know it surely?

Annorlunda5 · 11/12/2017 11:55

Unless we can always tell that transwomen are male. I personally cant.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 11:56

ThermostatPolice is agreeing with you, Macaroon (unless I've misunderstood, in this weird world where words mean their opposites).

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:57

Say they passed really well, we could be examined by a trans doctor and not even know it surely?

Whilst that could be true, it’s unlikely. Particularly with trans-identified males. I’ve yet to see one who convincingly passes, in person. (Not a photograph).

But in theory, yes.

daimbar · 11/12/2017 12:04

I think thermostat was trying to say it’s fine to refuse treatment from trans people but not black people but just ended up highlighting the parallel between transphobia and racism again.

PricklyBall · 11/12/2017 12:05

Daim, you need to own your position. Don't try to pretend that there's an easy answer.

If you are right that a woman refusing a smear from a nurse who is trans is the same level of bigotry as a woman refusing a smear from a nurse because that nurse is black, then you have to be prepared to defend the consequence for that patient. And at the moment, the consequence of a patient refusing medical treatment from a HCP on the basis of race is that that patient could be struck off the list for that surgery. So what you are in fact saying is that you are okay with women being struck off the list of a GP for refusing smear test by a male-bodied HCP.

You may not think that is what you are saying, but if you hold that transwomen are women, and that refusing to recognise this is transphobia, and that transphobia is exactly the same as racism, than that is precisely what you are advocating.

If you believe the moon is made of green cheese, you have to be prepared to follow that all the way through to its logical conclusion. You can't say "you're all a load of bigots... but we'll allow rape victims a special pass to be a bit bigoted if they can demonstrate they're sufficiently traumatised." The law, and the rules round prejudice and behaviour in the workplace won't allow this.

MacaroonMama · 11/12/2017 12:05

Oops sorry Thermostatpolice! Thought you were saying those of us who would ask for a female HCP were akin to racists. My mistake. Thanks Lancelottie x

BatShite · 11/12/2017 12:06

the OP’s post is not directed at trans activists? it is inciting hate at regular trans women. Trans women who wish to work in health care or become midwives (why shouldn’t they?). Making out young people are transitioning just to win on sports day, that transgender women in female toilets are likely to commit assault.

One of the 'nice' transwomen would not be competing against females in sport. As they would understand they had an unfair advantage. They would not be imposing themselves on females who have asked for females, as they know theya re not female. And so on.

Its not inciting hate against regular transwomen, as the only people who would abuse this are the 'not nice' tranwowmen (who are a significant minority) and normal men who want to take the piss.

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