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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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Datun · 11/12/2017 10:17

I would have exactly the same amount of empathy for a woman refusing to receive healthcare from a trans midwife as I would for a white woman refusing to be treated by a black midwife. And that would be zero.

Oh ffs. I don’t know how you could be so selfish. I’ve just typed out a very reasonable post to you, I should have saved my breath. What a foolish post. And a very telling one at that. There are numerous women who have been raped and sexually assaulted who can’t even bear to let the plumber in when alone.

And you are perfectly happy with them asking for a female HCP, only to be presented with a man, (complete with beard).

If anyone seriously thinks transgender midwifes have a sinister ulterior motive they need their heads examined.

Wrong again. Meet Katie. A degree educated transwoman who will help you with your orgasms (as long as you can prove categorically that you are indeed a woman, and not a transwoman). She is holding a workshop at a woman’s centre. She will hypnotise you into earthshattering orgasms. She also runs a pregnancy advisory service for transwomen.

Because Katie is an autogynephile who gets incredibly aroused by fetishising women’s biology.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3108095-To-think-that-Brian-from-Hull-is-now-Katie-from-Nottingham

Aeroflotgirl · 11/12/2017 10:19

Exactly, like a male,might want a biological male to do his intimate care or talk about issues relating to men's health and not a transman.

sauceyorange · 11/12/2017 10:29

daim thanks for responding. The thing is, I don't care if people want to dress as the opposite sex, or behave in a at they think means 'opposite sex'. Whatever. Live and let live. But they already have the protected right to do so under the law. Why does the law need to change? A law which removes protections for women and girls?

That's my problem with it. I couldn't give a monkeys who people sleep with, or what they wear, although I would prefer those who are distressed to have better access to care and support. I'll be damned if I am forced to validate stereotypical gender roles to make people feel better. There's a name for that already. Sexism.

All your examples basically assume people are generally nice and unobtrusive kind types. By you can't - and we never have as a country - legislate on that basis. You simply cannot assume everyone is decent. The law must be exhaustive and protective of the vulnerable

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 10:31

Datun

I missed that thread. WTAF?

Hilarious and creepy. Going to send it to DH, he will love it

sauceyorange · 11/12/2017 10:33

On top of that, the GRA would actually damage the ability of distressed dysphoric people to access care - psych or surgical. So it benefits absolutely no one except predatory males and conservatives who rely on gender stereotypes.

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 10:33

Except a black midwife is a woman. And a male midwife isn't. So not really the same thing, is it? Just because you're credulous and subscribe to an absurd ideology don't expect the rest of us to. I want to have the right to ask for a female HCP, as a rape survivor. And you don't think I should have that right. So I'll ask you again. Why don't you have any empathy for women, Daim?

daimbar · 11/12/2017 10:47

Anyone can request a different practitioner if they do not feel comfortable with the person treating them. Victims of assault have my deepest sympathies and of course their needs and wants should some first and rightly so. Nobody is challenging the right of women to request a practitioner they feel comfortable with, even the trans activists!

There is a big difference between asking to see another practitioner because you feel uncomfortable than explicitly refusing to be treated by a trans person.

A professionally trained trans woman would be sensitive, kind and provide the same level of care as any other healthcare professional.

I don’t understand what you propose the solution to be? Trans women can’t work in the health care profession at all?

CercoCasa · 11/12/2017 10:50

“When Sarah beat Hubbard in the snatch we were congratulated by multiple coaching staffs. Nobody wanted her to win.”

COuldn't help but giggle...

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 10:50

No Daim. If Self ID goes through, women will not have the right to request a female health professional, because a transwomen will be legally female.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 10:51

Daim those mental gymnastics are impressive.

In what way is refusing a transwoman midwife on the grounds that they are male similar to refusing a black midwife? Transwomen are male. That's the point. There are no good reasons to refuse a black midwife. Plenty of very understandable reasons why a woman might require a female midwife in order to feel safe.

Like you, I was happy to have male doctors throughout pregnancy. But just because we are doesn't mean everyone else is. You'd have to have a heart of stone to read someone like Ereshkigal's posts and insist on removing that choice to avoid hurting a HCP's feelings.

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 10:51

I don’t understand what you propose the solution to be? Trans women can’t work in the health care profession at all?

About 10 people have already pointed out that's not what's being asked for. We just want a recognition that they are male and it's not appropriate for them to be in female spaces in all cases.

hipsterfun · 11/12/2017 10:51

But you can’t ask for someone who isn’t a biological male if you’re not able to say a transwoman is a biological male.

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 10:52

Nobody is challenging the right of women to request a practitioner they feel comfortable with, even the trans activists!

I can assure you you are wrong there. They are.

Datun · 11/12/2017 10:53

No Daim. If Self ID goes through, women will not have the right to request a female health professional, because a transwomen will be legally female.

I’m still amazed that people haven’t grasped this.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 10:53

Daim cross posted, sorry. The point is that transwomen are male!! Many women don't want to be treated by males and that's okay. It doesn't matter if the transwoman is well trained and sensitive. It won't change the fact that they are male and therefore have the potential to make people who have been abused feel unsafe.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 10:58

To be clear, 'It won't change the fact that they are male and therefore have the potential to make people who have been abused feel unsafe even if the transwoman themselves actually poses no threat' Women have no way of knowing whether a male is safe or not. We really don't. It's okay to have a high threshold for safety.

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 10:59

Patient: I am a rape survivor with PTSD. I must have a woman HCP because being in intimate situations with male-bodied people triggers that PTSD.

Health authority: no problem. Here are both the women employed by us in this role. Which would you like to see?

Patient: both those people are male-bodied and in possession of penises. They will trigger my PTSD.

Health authority: sorry, these are our women. You'll have to go elsewhere, you bigot.

How can anybody not understand this?

daimbar · 11/12/2017 11:03

Lang

Patient: I do not feel comfortable being treated by either of these practitioners, please can I have an alternative?

NHS: yes, you are fully within your rights to request another practitioner.

There will never be a scanario where women are forced to be seen by anyone they feel uncomfortable with.

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 11:08

daimbar

For heavens sakes. Yes. There. Will. Because the ability to request a female HCP rests on the legal definition of female.

Nobody here is objecting to trans people existing, or being free to pursue whatever career they choose. The only objection is to self-ID into a protected class, which will adversely affect existing members of that protected class. It's a matter of competing rights.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 11:10

Daim

So you will have a woman go for a smear and she will be in the position of having to complain that she doesn't want the transwoman to do the smear. How is this fair? Or legal? Surely she would have to give a reason. Because, to use your example, if a woman refused to have a black nurse do the smear, that would not be on. And illegal. As it would be illegal to refuse the transwoman on the grounds of being a transwoman.

You're really tying yourself up in knot here trying to justify what is clearly indefensible

daimbar · 11/12/2017 11:17

Assigned you can give any reason why you wish to have a different practitioner. In an ideal world people would trust the trans practitioner to do their job competently and sensitively but if it really bothered you that much you could simply say you felt uncomfortable and wished to see somebody else. You are not obliged to give a reason.

Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2017 11:19

The general population knows very little about any of this. I think that's why the TRAs have made such rapid progress. It seems like a very niche area to most people.

I don't think there is general understanding that the UK government is proposing a change to the law to allow anyone to fill in a simple form declaring that they now belong to the opposite sex to the one they were born into, with no checks at all. This has already happened in Canada and parts of the US.

I also believe that many people think transgender people have all had surgery or are planning to, whereas the truth is that only a very small minority do*. They don't all take hormones either.

I've seen comments indicating that some people believe that having surgery, or even taking hormones, somehow enables a person to literally change sex, even though that's impossible. The chromosomes will always stay as they were at birth and they are in every cell of the body.

*Given how awful the surgery sounds, this is a good thing.

Datun · 11/12/2017 11:22

Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?

Because they are MEN!

If I didn’t want a male HCP, I could be perfectly happy with a TRANSMAN!!

Not about trans, about MALE.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 11:23

There will never be a scanario where women are forced to be seen by anyone they feel uncomfortable with.

Literally forced, no. But forced in practice because no other person is made available and you need health care, yes.

Particularly if demanding a female HCP is placed on a parr with demanding a white HCP. And if the transwoman is now legally female.

Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?

You would accuse a woman of hate because they explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans woman just because they are trans?? It's not to do with being trans. It's to do with being male.

ferntwist · 11/12/2017 11:24

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