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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
BatShite · 11/12/2017 12:07

"Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?"
Noone would be refusing treatment as the person is trans. A female would be refusing treatment as the person is male. Which should always be their right. Male people are not female, no matter how many 'you are nasty bigots' are thrown around.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 12:08

Macaroon

LanceLottie is right, we're on the same page here. Although perhaps I didn't express myself clearly in my outrage!

I was trying to make the point that replacing 'racist' with 'transphobic' is ludicrous. It's terrifying to imagine that in the future newspaper articles might vilify women who refuse male HCPs as 'transphobic' in the same way that they currently, rightly, criticise racist patients who refuse black HCPs.

Thermostatpolice · 11/12/2017 12:09

Cross posted Macaroon! All good.

BatShite · 11/12/2017 12:09

I don’t understand what you propose the solution to be? Trans women can’t work in the health care profession at all?

Given there are a lot of people who don't care which sex they are treated by, I don't see how you come to this conclusion tbh. Sounds like an emotive argument to me, something the people in this thread have been accused of.

I don't care if the person who does my smear is male or female. But I think other females should have the choice to be treated by a female. Why is this such a radical view these days?

MacaroonMama · 11/12/2017 12:17

Thermostatpolice got it! And I totally agree. If it is a hate crime to describe biology, how can we teach girls and young women to be assertive and speak up? They will be so worried they are being hateful, they may well not ask for the female HCP they really want for their first smear or discussion about periods or contraception.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 12:26

They are worried they're being hateful.

There are boys and men who exploit this natural decency.

(Hell, there are even transboys who exploit this. There is one being a right pain in my daughter's school at the moment; but while Very Annoying, this child is not much of a physical threat to anyone, being about 5 ft 2.)

HemlockSpartacus · 11/12/2017 12:35

Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?

So you think it's "hate" if someone feels more comfortable discussing intimate health issues with someone who has a similar biology to them and therefore might have more understanding?

Would you think it was "hate" for a woman to not want a man touching or looking at her in intimate areas?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 12:40

Hemlock
"Would you think it was "hate" for a woman to not want a man touching or looking at her in intimate areas?"

This is at the core of all this shit. Those who call us haters have no regard for the safety or privacy of women at all. Transwomen's rights trump ours everytime. Why is that Daim?

AdalindSchade · 11/12/2017 12:50

Surely you can see that it’s hate to explicitly refuse to be treated by a trans person just because they are trans?

Good lord you are dense

Glowerglass · 11/12/2017 12:54

I have never met a transwoman in person who passes. On a photograph, sure. In the flesh, no, not even remotely convincing.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/12/2017 12:59

NO not because they are trans, but they are still biologically a male, even though a person may identify with the opposite gender, they will always be their biological sex, you cannot change genetics and chromosomes. When discussing intimate problems, I would rather have a biological female doctor or nurse, who has the same anatomy as me, and will understand where I am coming from. If I have to have a male HCP if there was nobody else, and it was an emergency, than yes, I would prefer a Female.

bluewoollyhat · 11/12/2017 13:12

Wow carrot thank you for your post
I’ve stuck my head above the parapet again and shared on fb....deafening silence so far but I’m hoping people will at least read and think about these issues
Flowers

hackmum · 11/12/2017 13:14

Glower: "I have never met a transwoman in person who passes."

I know I'm being pedantic here, but if you did meet a transwoman who passed, and they hadn't told you they were trans, you wouldn't know, would you? (Sorry, not trying to derail, honestly...)

Datun · 11/12/2017 13:18

hackmum

That’s true !

The different causes of gender dysphoria have a certain marker, though.

Homosexual transsexuals are usually very effeminate, and stand a much better chance of passing. They also don’t fall into the autogynephile bracket.

Autogynephiles are usually not effeminate, and have an incredibly skewed view of the way they look.

To outsiders they tend to look like masculine men in a dress, but to themselves they appear sexy and feminine.

Scant comfort. But it’s one way to tell a fetishist, at least.

christinarossetti · 11/12/2017 13:21

'Passing' isn't just, or even, about how someone looks.

People who are socialised as men within a patriarchal society maintain the male privilege that they have acquired.

One trans woman that I know does 'pass' in a photo, but she still behaves like a man ie talks over women, magnifies women's mistakes whilst she glosses over men's.

juneau · 11/12/2017 13:26

Well said OP. I agree with you 100%.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 13:26

Curry, on here, 'passes' in the sense that her posts come across as female, time after time after time.

Which is interesting. Of course, she may only be pretending to be trans, or be a genetic female who genuinely identifies as a transwoman, given that you can't tell who anyone is on the internet

StigOfThePlump · 11/12/2017 13:42

The old chestnut that all men interrupt women and ignore men's mistakes. Grin

My father is the most browbeaten old man you've ever seen! He wouldn't dare interrupt my mother lol. And believe me she's never wrong, even when she's clearly wrong. A genuine bully through and through.

I see a lot of these types of relationships. It's down to personality types not gender and most people know this. It just bewilders me why some feminists seem intent to tarnish a movement that does some genuinely wonderful things. I often speculate it's the female equivalent of locker room talk, where nobody challenges the speaker so they feel emboldened. Sadly, most normal people see it for what it is - this is evident in the thread about only 7% of women being feminists (a good number of women say they can't get onboard with the casual man bashing).

titchy · 11/12/2017 14:03

Daim if you're going to use race as an analogy, at least get it the correct way round.

The equivalent to females (the under-privileged group) not wanting transwomen (i.e.males, the privileged group) in their space is black people (the under-privileged group) not wanting white people (the privileged group) in their space - for example being shortlisted for Board level roles where there is a shortage of black members.

It is NOT about the privileged group barring the under-privileged which you're attempting to say it is.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 11/12/2017 14:04

As SparklyUnicorn says it is a well recognised part of our society that it is accepted and normal for females to ask for female doctors for certain things AND for males to ask for male doctors (proctology exams for example). This is based on biological sex. Why are the transactivists such special snowflakes that these norms shouldn't apply to them? It seems to me if you're the one being prodded and poked it should be up to you. It's pretty routine in hospitals for doctors to ASK THE PATIENT if they mind inexperienced trainee doctors to be present and it's your right to say no.

It's absolutely fine for transwomen to become midwives, it's also fine for some patients to ask for a biological woman and refuse to see that transwoman midwife. The midwife is there and being paid to look after the woman having the baby and the most basic level of 'looking after' is not making that person uncomfortable or scared - the patient has the right to choose who they want to see. Anything else is abuse, pure and simple.

Also, it's not transphobic to say this. If my midwife had suddenly become a transman I'd have absolutely no problem in continuing to see her. I would have a problem seeing a biological male.

lostplot · 11/12/2017 14:16

Daim, don't you care about women of certain religions? They would no longer be able to use public loos if biological males were present. It would impact their healthcare if they couldn't request a female doctor or nurse. You need to think about the repercussions for all women.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 11/12/2017 14:46

Stig that's about the third post now where I've wondered if you are intending to come across patronising? If you have something genuine to offer this debate please do, but it's sounding at the moment like a headmaster fondly lecturing the lower third which makes it difficult to take anything in the post seriously.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 15:01

It's more a case of 'Interrupting Man Interrupts to tell us that men don't interrupt', really, Sparkly Grin

daimbar · 11/12/2017 15:03

I am listening to your fears and I appreciate that many of you genuinely feel alarmed and frightened by trans women having equal rights. I am not trying to invalidate your feelings, I simply disagree with you and hope some of you will begin to wonder if your fears are irrational.

Trans people are subject to thorough DRB checks like everyone else. No health professional would be allowed to treat vulnerable patients as a ‘fetish’.

Hand on heart I don’t understand what there is to be frightened of? If everything in the OP came true tomorrow, your worst fears are realised, what would actually happen? Trans people would have equal rights, just like gay people who faced similar discrimination 15 ago. And would this really be so bad? If us women granted the marginalised 0.5% of trans women the permission to share our spaces? It wouldn’t make us any less women. It wouldn’t make us any more vulnerable to attack or assault, it would just make us a kinder and more accepting society.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 15:07

I think you are misreading, Daimbar.

I don't want a male when I have requested a female.

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